Sad story of a young life taken without intent. Bullet passed through wall.

https://www.usatoday.com/story...s-police/9011143002/

Without more factual information, I won't pass judgement.

May have been the attacker was still a ticky harming the victim, or an immediate/deadly threat.

Or, could have been a standoff other situation, where it could have been worked out.

No matter what, events unfolded because someone violently attacked another, and that should be where the weight is applied.

(Opinion to the story, not a criticism of your post)

It’s tragic but I don’t see based on the article what they could have done differently? Asked the perp to pause while they clear the area including all the dressing rooms then resume the gunfight?

If citizens and/or LE would only fire in self defense after considering if it is possible a miss could hit an innocent bystander (unseen ones no less) then you basically could never shoot in self defense.

Seeing someone in your line of fire is different than a blank wall…

Officer video supposidly will be released sometime Monday. ...........Sad state of affairs.... thoughts and prayers to all involved. ..................................... drill sgt.

Very sad indeed, imagine what that officer is feeling.

Assuming it's justified in the initial.shooting.

Just with what I saw, seems the perp needed to be shot, he’s dead.

There’s always randomness & fate lurking, just the wrong place, wrong time. Obviously a very tragic outcome, no doubt.

It’s bad enough for the officers involved, one can imagine much more if it was a private citizen, CC holder.

One of the so-called “four” rules of gun safety is be aware of what’s beyond the target before shooting. And how, pray tell, do the police do that if they’re defending themselves or others anywhere but on a designated firing range?

There are countless Internet videos of law enforcement defensive shootings, and I recall very few in which the officer(s) could have been absolutely certain that a miss or pass through wouldn’t hit an uninvolved person. Even if there’s a brick wall behind the criminal, there’s always the risk of ricochets, especially with handgun or shotgun projectiles. How many times have we seen an LEO firing at someone who jumps out of his vehicle on a public street and starts shooting at the officer? Would any of us set up a cardboard target next to an Interstate highway and fire shots along or across a busy roadway? Would we hold a live fire demonstration in a large store without ensuring that no one was in the line of fire in a dressing room, as in this incident?

I have given the LEOs I train guidance on how to minimize the danger to bystanders in the event of a shooting in a public place, but it’s not always absolutely possible to eliminate the risk or even to do anything other than react immediately. And “Couldn’t he have done something different? Couldn’t he have reasoned with him more before shooting while he was beating someone on the head? Couldn’t he have used a TASER or shot him in the leg?” Yes, maybe so, maybe not. And maybe we’ll get to the point that the only people becoming police officers will be those who are too stupid to realize what a horrible idea that is; what a good situation that will be.

This sort of incident is fortunately extremely rare or we’d hear about them all the time, but it’s just one of those many things that can make policing a nightmare.

Unfortunate when there are unintended casualties like this.
You should have to be conscience of what's beyond and make decisions that factor it in, sometimes there is no choice.
These situations pose risk but in most of these cases it does not and should not rise to criminal remedies.
Civil remedies will pick up the ball.
However, when politics get involved like the Kim Potter trial recently in MN juries will get it wrong.
The crime was convicting her.

I'd like to see the LAPD cam footage and narrative first.

It sounds like the girl was hiding in the changing room with Mom, normally fine plan. Likely the police had no clue they were there, plus I think the perp was shooting.

At 1st look, seems mostly a tragic, somewhat freak, accident. Even though the perp is dead, any fault goes to him.

Looks like an M16A1 with an ACOG. .223/5.56 round

The only thing that I as a civilian concealed carrier can say about the subject line, as someone having had to use his weapon in self-defense when the SHTF without warning is the following...

"Consider All Possibilities When Firing A Weapon" does not exist when you are suddenly under attack, the adrenaline starts to flow, and you must respond NOW to stay alive! My decision and response time was well under a second, and while having the luxury of the time to run all possible scenarios through my brain would have been awesome, and likely saved me TENS of THOUSANDS of dollars in attorney and court fees, it simply doesn't work that way!!!

You train the best you can in all possible scenarios, and as often as possible, but I can promise you there will be dozens and dozens you haven't thought of... and the chances of one of those popping up is very strong!

What's the answer? Train the best you can, spend many hours going through "what if's" in your head while relaxed to hopefully get your response ingrained in your brain before it happens, and then hope to God you never have to fire your weapon in self-defense!!!

quote:

Originally posted by bronicabill:
"Consider All Possibilities When Firing A Weapon" does not exist when you are suddenly under attack, the adrenaline starts to flow, and you must respond NOW to stay alive! My decision and response time was well under a second, and while having the luxury of the time to run all possible scenarios through my brain would have been awesome, and likely saved me TENS of THOUSANDS of dollars in attorney and court fees, it simply doesn't work that way!!!

Oh, yes it does. This is called situational awareness, and it does NOT begin at the moment you start shooting. If it does, then you are far, far behind the curve.

You had better not cover anything with the muzzle which you're not prepared to destroy.

You had better keep your finger off that trigger until ready to fire.

You had better know your backstop and what lies beyond.

You are responsible for every round fired.

The officer in this case opened fire over the body of a victim who lay bleeding on the ground, shooting down a short aisle of clothing, at the suspect as he tried to move out of sight. The suspect was armed with a bike lock and chain, which he had used to injure several women.

Whether the shooting was justified or not will be an internal, and a legal battle which will play out over some time yet to come.

One may make a strategic decision to carry. One may make a tactical decision to shoot. One does not get to decided if the shoot was justified, as that occurs after the fact by a judge or jury.

One must consider all the possibilities when firing a weapon. Tunnel vision misses the school bus full of kids behind the target. Tunnel vision misses the second shooter.

Knowing all scenarios isn't a part of considering the possibilities. Being situationally aware is. That includes adhering to the same fundamentals that exist at all times, and in all places. You don't get to choose the decisions and actions of bad actors, but you do get to choose your response.

"Suddenly under sttack" is not a reason to toss the fundamentals out the window. If you do, then it means one isn't prepared for the moment and additional training is required. That's not on the bad guy. That's on you.

very sad

a million different tangents / what if's you can do regarding this incident

just 100% sad all the way around

--------------------------------

Based just on this video...

The guy deserved to be shot.

An AR or similar weapon wasn't the right tool for this job, in this setting, and I suspect the officer had a better tool in his possession.

Maybe a handgun round would have also penetrated a likely sheet rock wall but probably not after a solid body hit with SD ammo. The rifle round could easily go to the other end of the mall through several sheetrock walls.

Comparing this to the Duantee Wright shooting where everyone agrees she used the wrong weapon with an error in choice in a fraction of a second, he walked into the place with minutes to reassess his choice of weapon. A more conscious decision. Some future training lessons here for sure.

Yes, lots of what if's here.
Cops have to make some tough decisions quickly with limited information and it's not fair to charge them later after having all sorts of tools to evaluate that they don't have in real time.

Lightly constructed fast moving 5.56 bullets actually penetrate less than much heavier slower handgun bullets. This is why (one reason) it is the overwhelming choice of SWAT and military teams who do hostage rescue.

quote:

Originally posted by Strambo:
Lightly constructed fast moving 5.56 bullets actually penetrate less than much heavier slower handgun bullets. This is why (one reason) it is the overwhelming choice of SWAT and military teams who do hostage rescue.

Not to mention that a carbine as more accurate than a handgun, especially with a combat sight.

That rifle is twisted 1:12 so it's all but certain the ammunition being used was 55 grains, and most likely fmj.

I would not presume to armchair quarterback this police officer. It's easy as can be to sit at your keyboard and criticize someone who had to react in a split second.

Not to be callus, but cops have been accidentally shooting citizens since “the cops” began being a thing. When I went thru the basic school this was brought up. You can do everything right and still be wrong.

Looks like LA will once again be paying a family for their loved one.

I think this is a thing, because of the proliferation of cameras and technology. We see “more” of this (the cops getting something wrong) because news can spread easier, faster and farther than news ever has. Fifty years ago no one outside of LA would even know the cops accidentally shot a citizen.

As to the question of did the cop use the right tool? Maybe. I don’t think that I’d transition to a handgun when I have a working rifle in my hands. The rifle makes it easier to hit what you are aiming at. That equals less bystander hit(which the city attorneys all agree on) unless your round overpenetrates the bad guy and hits someone behind them.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
That rifle is twisted 1:12 so it's all but certain the ammunition being used was 55 grains, and most likely fmj.

I would not presume to armchair quarterback this police officer. It's easy as can be to sit at your keyboard and criticize someone who had to react in a split second.

FMJ is an assumption, not a fact. PD's have their ammo choices vetted thru City Council's and their liability insurer. There are also 55gn hollow points on the market - precisely because most states don't allow FMJ for hunting. And the ammo makers like to supply what the PD's need.

https://www.targetsportsusa.co...t-t223e-p-58613.aspx

Just one example I guess. There is no present mandatory use of "full metal jacket" imposed on our military - none - no treaties or binding UN requirements. And never was. We've been using Sierra match hollow points since they were invented for the Olympics in the 1950's, and JAG went thru the whole legal application and issued an opinion in the 1980s covering it's legitimacy.

If you consider the latest rounds with steel penetrator tips, they aren't really full jacketed. The point to military ammo being made that way is to penetrate: sand bags, adoble block, concrete block, light skinned vehicles, aircraft, wood structures, etc. in order to hit the enemy hiding behind it. The expression is "to turn cover into concealment." It's a common military tactic to shoot thru things, like, front doors, etc. If you slammed it in the face of the enemy, pull trigger.

Appliances are less cover than bookcases filled with hardcover volumes. A stove or refrigerator is often an easier thru and thru than a car.

Which is why PD's choose expanding tip bullets, to reduce penetration and lower the number of innocent bystanders hit.

All this goes to: if you are hiding in a store, get on the floor. The perp doesn't choose ammo to keep from killing innocent people, they shoot what they can get, and largely shoot with no regard of what is behind a wall, counter, or display.

I find it interesting this story came out with the PD liable - how much delay did that take for a forensic recovery of the bullet, analysis, recreation of the scene with every attributable shot accounted for? Seems hasty.