quote:

Originally posted by redleg2/9:

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I had to push the limit to see where it was.

I really hate bullshit statements like this.

Everybody's living in their own movie.

This is the same guy who had an ND in his garage and lied to his wife.

Nuff said.

A legend in his own mind.

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Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
This is the same guy who had an ND in his garage and lied to his wife.

Nuff said.

A legend in his own mind.

Ha ha. Remember that gem.

Well, the man told a story which painted himself in an unfavorable light. I would think that having such a thing thrown back at him might stick in a man's craw, especially given that we're discussing a subject in which we are accusing him of being less than candid. We chastise him for what we perceive to be dishonesty, then chastise him for his honesty in revealing something else about his life. That's hardly fair, I think. Let's be cool.

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Originally posted by sigfreund:
I wonder why no one ever wants to die doing something they hate…..

People die every day doing something they hate, very few people die doing something they love.

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Originally posted by parabellum:
If you brought him back from the dead, do you think he'd take that flight again? …..

Since I cannot speak to the dead, I cannot answer that question for him. But I can say that I have friends that have nearly died or been “basically” dead (resuscitated) in cave diving accidents, that upon healing and rehab went right back into cave diving. But, if I had to speculate, I would say, yes, he would do it again.

I personally was 2 breaths, or less, from blacking out in 206’ of water (by myself, so the end was obvious) and went back to the same wreck a week later, and on numerous occasions went deeper.

Anyone that has every participated in any kind of high risk endeavor, and pushed the envelope, will have plenty of “yikes” moments, be it diving, wingsuit flying, auto racing, snow skiing, etc., some quit after that moment, and some don’t. I’m not judging either decision.

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Originally posted by kkina:
Although it's a tragic story, I would question the rationale of naming your project after someone who flew too high and fell to their demise.

It is a little like naming your new ship "Titanic."

We all die, and some folks do "fall in love with dying/that feeling that its not possible for you to die"

Yes, outside of the service, it's stupid.

As a Christian, I think its a result of demonic influence, and a subtle guise to lead someone to suicide...

OTH, dying of old age is a bit terrifying... I don't race cars anymore, and I don't compete in strongman anymore, but I admit, going out in a high-speed ball of fire, or stroking out, seems a great deal better than laying in bed, slowly suffocating from cardiovascular failure, or multiple organ failure from cancer...

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Originally posted by Southflorida-law:
Since I cannot speak to the dead, I cannot answer that question for him.

Well, just who in the Hell ask you to answer it? I didn't even bother to read your post after that sentence. It's no surprise that you would show up in this thread to defend the reckless behavior of "extreme sport" participants, considering that you have defended cave diving several times.

No one in this thread asked you to revisit that subject. It has been discussed several times. You know my position on the subject and I know yours, and ne'er the twain shall meet, and that's that.

Don't delude yourself for a single second that I will ever believe that one of these twits who kills themselves with this "extreme sport" NONSENSE, would- if resurrected from the dead and given a second chance at life- go back to doing the very same idiotic things that killed them. It's preposterous. Not in a million years could you convince me of such a thing. Only the truly insane or monumentally stupid (or those whose actions were a deliberate suicide) would do such a thing,. Any rational, reasonably intelligent person would take the Mulligan and go try to live a full AND LONG life.

Try playing Russian roulette with a semi auto.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Don't act clueless.

I'm not clueless. Far from it. In fact, in this thread, I may be the only one who isn't clueless about the subject.

What's your level of certification and experience in parachuting, skydiving, or jump operations, BASE jumping, wingsuiting again? How many decades?

Zero, is it?

I'm absolutely not clueless about this. I've been doing it much of my life. As a consequence of a lifetime of involvement, I don't view it based on what I *think* I know on the subject, based on what I read on the internet.

Part of your misunderstanding seems to be rooted in the idea you seem to have that wingsuit operations are tied to BASE jumps, or that a wingsuit jump is a BASE jump. This is false.

A wingsuit is nothing more than a type of jumpsuit, and there are many. Some are tight to the body, some modified with "grippers" to allow freefall formation relative work. Some are lose to change the drag that a jumper experiences. Some include small wings near the armpit area, for camera flying, and some include webbing between the arms and torso and between the legs for additional drag and directional push; these are wingsuits. They come in a number of shapes and sizes, and are a discipline, but just another form of body flying in freefall.

Some jumpers elect to use wingsuits in BASE jumps. Most do not. Hundreds of thousands of wingsuit jumps are made regularly as skydives, all terminating the same; opening a main canopy and landing like any other jumper. A few are made from Buildings, spans, etc, and and those terminate the same way. A very, very rare few, a fraction of the percentage, end in mishaps or fatalities. There is absolutely NOTHING inevitable about the outcome of a skydive or BASE jump.

The notion that wingsuit jumping is dangerous is ignorant, something one expects to hear from those who have no idea about skydiving or wingsuiting.

2018 represented the lowest percentage of fatalities in the US in jumping ever recorded: .0039 fatalities per 1000 jumps; of an estimated 3.2 million jumps, there were 13 fatalities. That's just among USPA-member drop zones. Additionally, the reported injury rate was 1 in 1537 jumps. Most injuries are landing perfectly good canopies, given the faster speeds of smaller, modern ram-air canopies, which are used by wingsuiters and non-wingsuiters.

Put another way, the fatality rate is considerably less than one in a quarter of a million, and less than the chance of a lightning strike. Tandem skydives have less than half the rate for the rest of the skydiving community: one in half a million.

In 30+ years, 200 BASE jumpers were killed, 25% of which were wingsuit jumpers. Proximity flying, which is operating a wingsuit close to terrain, has increased risks which are not a part of normal wingsuit flying. In fact, wingsuit flying is a regular competition discipline, not a daredevil sport that brings with it inevitable death and destruction.

A very small percentage of jumpers participate in BASE activities (jumping from fixed objects). In jumping, altitude is life; the higher, the safer, generally speaking, because altitude is time. Base jumping offers less time. Control in freefall comes with speed: full control as a jumper comes at terminal velocity or higher, and the first ten seconds of a freefall from a fixed position in still air will be accelerating to terminal velocity. Many BASE jumps don't enable ten seconds of freefall, as that equates to a thousand feet, give or take. Additionally, opening a canopy in freefall from an aircraft has fewer hazards; the canopy can open in any direction, not just on the heading one held when deploying the canopy, and one can be okay. Not so with a BASE jump, when opening a canopy in the wrong direction can drive the jumper into a cliff or structure.

Wingsuits offer increased safety and huge advantages for a BASE jumper, in enabling the jumper to drive away from the structure or terrain. Wingsuits also offer a disadvantage, which is that the BASE jumper is already at a lower velocity when deploying a parachute: this means a potentially slower deployment, or a longer period of time falling while opening and a longer distance fallen for deployment: this can be exaggerated with a wingsuit because of the burble of airflow behind the wingsuit.

BASE jumpers use modified equipment to achieve more positive, faster openings, but a wingsuit can complicate that. Wingsuits also fall slower, altering the normal time in a descent, which can mess with altitude awareness. In the 1930's, wingsuits were banned for a time because jumpers were riding the wingsuits into the ground due to altitude awareness loss; a lot has changed since that time, and modern wingsuits are well designed equipment. Fatalities or injuries associated with wingsuits are very rare.

Wingsuit jumping from aircraft is a non-issue; it's another skydive with an exit point considerably farther from the drop zone, thanks to glide distance. Wingsuit BASE jumps are another matter. Regarding BASE, a bit less than. half of all BASE fatalities are failure to deploy a parachute. About a quarter of them are body strikes, a little less than 10% from canopy strikes. Nearly three quarters of all BASE fatalities are associated with a cliff as the exit point, vs. Buildings, Antennas, or Spans (BASE: Building, Antenna, Span, Earth).

Wingsuiting is done individually, and very commonly in groups (called "flocking"). It's found in military and civil circles, and even the Golden Knights, the US Army parachute team which participates in worldwide competition and demonstrations, regularly demonstrates wingsuit flying. Neither the Golden Knights nor any other jump team participates in unsafe, irresponsible activities, nor activities with death as the inevitable outcome.

Wingsuiting is a legitimate, internationally recognized discipline in parachuting and skydiving, with schools, dedicated equipment, and training.

Far, far from inevitable.

How would a life insurance salesman respond when you told him your hobby is base jumping or wingsuit flying ?

I'd guess they'd either not be willing to insure or they'd raise your rates fairly dramatically over the standard rate for the average man your age...

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Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Don't act clueless.

I'm not clueless. Far from it. In fact, in this thread, I may be the only one who isn't clueless about the subject.

What's your level of certification and experience in parachuting, skydiving, or jump operations, BASE jumping, wingsuiting again? How many decades?

Zero, is it?

Jesus, man. Scroll up the page a bit, will you? See anything? I took the time to defend you against what I felt were unfair comments, and this is how you come back?

No, you're not clueless, far from it. I said "act", as in being disingenuous, which you have been at points in this thread, most assuredly. Far from clueless, you are. You appear to be an intelligent man, which makes your disingenuous and obtuse behavior egregious, because you should know better, both for yourself and for others in this thread, who themselves possess a degree of intelligence.

Now, here's something that you need to get through your skull- You can write paragraph after paragraph citing your accomplishments, your experience. your beliefs and opinions on the subject at hand. You could do these things day in, day out for an entire month. You could post a half million words on the subject at hand, and at the end of it all, my position on the subject will remain the same. Just forget about it. Posting pictures in a wing suit- I am not impressed, not in the least. Just forget about it.

And I say to you in all candor that I felt a bit sorry for you when your ND incident was brought into this thread. I felt that it was unfair for it to be brought in, because you didn't have to tell us about that, and I think your reasons for telling about your ND were- at least in great measure- noble. And it seems to me that you were honest in recounting the incident. You can bet your bottom dollar that more than a few of the members of this forum have had NDs but we'll never hear about them because the incidents came about because of carelessness or the like, and telling others about it in a public forum would be embarrassing.

So, don't ever think that you have me figured out, because you do not. Few people do. Just as Whitman said, I contain multitudes. And just stop trying to convince me and others here that you're right about this wingsuit nonsense. You have your opinion on the matter and we have ours. Go jump out of a plane every day for the rest of your life if you desire and pretend that you are 'flying', when, at best, you are merely gliding. In actuality, you're simply falling, but there's no way for anyone to convince you of that, I'm certain.

If you want to feel all macho and badass and that you're an exceptional daredevil or whatever grand fantasies go through your head about this stuff, that's your business. But you need to forget about convincing me that this activity is not recklessly dangerous and pretty much pointless, and calculated to inflate the already inflated egos of those engaging in the activity.

And when someone pays you a kindness- though you may think it nothing at all- try refraining from breaking out a dick-measuring contest, OK, hot shot?

Life insurance doesn't respond well at all to BASE activities. They're excluded.

It doesn't respond well to aerial firefighting, either. Ask how I know.

BASE wingsuit injuries occur statistically at approximately 1 in 500 jumps, but it's much harder to pin down, given a lack of governing body, nor the same kind of statistical keeping, certification, or regulation as other disciplines. For normal wingsuit operations, minimum standards are set for jump experience; some BASE jumpers elect to operate outside guidelines, and are without regulation, and regarding insurance, I'm sure most don't bother, and those who do, probably lie to the insurance. Those few who do make the headlines from fatalities (a tiny minority), who are operating outside the community, tend to give the sport a bad name, and a false image.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

And I say to you in all candor that I felt a bit sorry for you when your ND incident was brought into this thread. I felt that it was unfair for it to be brought in, because you didn't have to tell us about that, and I think your reasons for telling about your ND were- at least great measure- noble. And it seems to me that you were honest in recounting the incident. You can bet your bottom dollar that more than a few of the members of this froum have had NDs, but we'll never hear about them because the incidents came about because of carelessness or the like, and telling others about it in a public forum would be embarrassing.

I appreciate that.

Pretty sad, trying to convince people you'll never meet about how much of a hot shot badass you think yourself to be. Pathetic, actually, to be quite honest.

For such a hot shot, you certainly seem terribly sensitive to people holding the outlandish opinion that reckless behavior is- reckless.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Pretty ssd, trying to convince people you'll never meet about how much of a hot shot badass you think yourself to be. Pathetic, actually, to be quite honest.

I said nothing about me being a badass. Nothing at all.

I did provide real numbers, however, relative to the actual statistics of the sport.

Partner, you don't have to say it. You're STRUTTING IT, Mister Cock o' the Walk.

Again- this is yet more disingenuous behavior from you. I can read every freaking word you put in this thread and you know it and you know that I know you didn't say it, so just stow the crap.

It's just a matter of time before WHACK!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPl8V_21E-8

Is the above picture representative of these wing suits? What practical application is there for this? What would it do that, for example, HALO jumping wouldn't? I don't see how one could even control the speed of one's descent, let alone make any kind of precise maneuvers.

Wingsuits act like gliders, and some maneuvers left and right are possible. They increase the air resistance on the “flyer” and thereby slow his descent. The guy being discussed in this thread reportedly crashed 25 kilometers (~15 miles) from the start point. That is a lot of forward movement, and wouldn’t be possible with an ordinary parachute from any sort of BASE height and probably not with a “parasail” (AFAIK). As I mentioned above, they are not like aircraft gliders that have enough lift under certain conditions to gain altitude.

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I can read every freaking word you put in this thread and you know it

I can't, I usually get a few paragraphs in and scroll down, sometimes I finish a chapter, once I made it to Part II. I've never finished the book.