This topic put this song in my head. https://youtu.be/X9oGkvpkefg

quote:

Originally posted by Bytes:

Actually in your first post he was 70 years old. Maybe I'm a slightly off base but could you tell us what advancements he made? Do you really think that he would have made it to 70~90 were he wing suit "flying"?

No, in my first post I referrred to a 70 year old who is still an active pilot and still an active basejumper. He's still flying tankers on fires, too.

I also referred to a 90 year old who has made very significant contributions to aviation.

Two different people.

As it's clearly out of your realm of understanding and experience, you really wouldn't comprehend what Col. Kittinger has done for research and development over the years, or the degree of his contribution, but you can educate yourself. He's actually 91 now.

So the extreme case is your justification?


Mmmmkay.

Perhaps I missed the answer to my question below. Does anyone see it?

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
If you brought him back from the dead, do you think he'd take that flight again? He's going to miss half of his life, probably more than half. Decades, man. He gave away decades of existence. Do you think that if he was granted a second chance, he'd go bouncing off the fucking ground again?

Gravity.... it's not just a good idea.... it's the LAW.

And it's a law that trying to break has severe consequences.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Perhaps I missed the answer to my question below. Does anyone see it?

You missed it because the person who must answer it is dead.

Your question also makes the assumption that if he were to make the jump again, the same outcome would occur.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
As it's clearly out of your realm of understanding and experience, you really wouldn't comprehend what Col. Kittinger has done for research and development over the years, or the degree of his contribution, but you can educate yourself. He's actually 91 now.

Wow, the guy asks for clarification and further information regarding a vague reference in one of your previous posts and you come back with this?

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Perhaps I missed the answer to my question below. Does anyone see it?

You missed it because the person who must answer it is dead.

Your question also makes the assumption that if he were to make the jump again, the same outcome would occur.

Avoidance and obfuscation. Got it. That's good schtik if you can get away with it.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Perhaps I missed the answer to my question below. Does anyone see it?

You missed it because the person who must answer it is dead.

Your question also makes the assumption that if he were to make the jump again, the same outcome would occur.

You will not answer the question now for the same reason you ignored it before; because you know that unless the guy was insane, he'd refrain from taking that fall err flght, and would most likely never again pull that stupid shit, and that would prove my point and therefore prove you wrong, and you're just not having that.

I was hoping at least for some honesty from you in your response, but all I see is a smoke screen.

Everyone here knows the answer to my question, including you. I suppose if you received a second chance, you'd go throwing it away- again. Please.

I asked you what you think, and you give me this "only the dead guy can answer that question" horse shit. You- I asked you what you think. Se habla Ingles?

The Thanatos instinct, as Freud theorized, we all have it. Me--I won't even ride a motorcycle.

Thread drift...

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
As it's clearly out of your realm of understanding and experience, you really wouldn't comprehend what Col. Kittinger has done for research and development over the years, or the degree of his contribution, but you can educate yourself. He's actually 91 now.

You just told me that I didn't have the brain power to comprehend what your 70 and 90 year old "colleagues" have done. Why would you suggest that I try educate myself about them? There's no way I could possibly reach your level of Zen. Do all pilots have the same level of arrogance as you? Actually no, most are nice, cordial, and professional people. At least the ones I know. You seem to be easily offended (you've mentioned that in one of your previous posts) and have an opinion of yourself and your intellect that I certainly don't share.

Back to the thread...

What is your answer to Para's question? Try to keep it under 2000 words. I know you have an issue with that. Let me help you out. Start with "No Fucking Way".

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Perhaps I missed the answer to my question below. Does anyone see it?

You missed it because the person who must answer it is dead.

Your question also makes the assumption that if he were to make the jump again, the same outcome would occur.

You will not answer the question now for the same reason you ignored it before; because you know that unless the guy was insane, he'd refrain from taking that fall err flght, and would most likely never again pull that stupid shit, and that would prove my point and therefore prove you wrong, and you're just not having that.

I was hoping at least for some honesty from you in your response, but all I see is a smoke screen.

Everyone here knows the answer to my question, including you. I suppose if you received a second chance, you'd go throwing it away- again. Please.

I asked you what you think, and you give me this "only the dead guy can answer that question" horse shit. You- I asked you what you think. Se habla Ingles?

You hablo ingles muy bien; claro, escribo muy bien, tambien, gracias.

You didn't ask what I think but what the dead man thinks. I can't speak for him.

I can tell you that if I place myself in the same position, one in which a potential outcome could be fatal in the event of a mishap, equipment failure, change in environmental conditions, or other factors, and a position I've been in many thousands of times, then yes, I would probably go into the situation again.

Why? Because it's fallacy to assume the same outcome. Simply because something happened once does not suggest in any way that it will happen again.

I'll give you two examples.

We fired a pilot who crashed one of our airplanes some years ago. He took off uphill, heavy, into rising terrain. He pulled the nose of the airplane up until he was stallled, and held it in the stalled condition until impact. He survived. When an investigator arrived and asked him "knowing what you know now, what would you do differently?" the hotshot USAF F16 pilot replied "Nothing. I'd do it exactly the same."

In his case, there were numerous things he could have done differently; jettison the load for one. Turn right, fly downhill. Lower the nose, fly out of it. Take off downhill. Delay his departure. Carry a lighter load. Make an earlier turn, and so on. Any one of those would have avoided the situation, and yet he announced that he'd do exactly the same thing. He lost his FAA certification, but continued to fly in the military.

About that same time period, same location, I had an active fire adjacent to some oil wells. When I flew into the fire, I experienced a downdraft and some windshear that accelerated my rate of descent, and put me in a position I had not intended. I jettisoned the load, experienced the buffeting of an accelerated stall, and clawed back out with a full understanding of what just nearly happened. Short story, I got fucking lucky. I was given a "load and return," and I chose to go hold and think about it for a little while. Then I came back to the fire.

Would I go back and do it again? Yes.

Would I change anything? Probably.

Could I predict the rapid environmental changes in that dynamic environment and account for them to guarantee a 100% assurance that they couldn't happen again? No. But I would go back again. And I did.

I was put in intensive care following a parachute malfunction some 30 years ago. It gives some personal insight into how I'd handle that experience, so I'll speak from that experience: would I go jump again? Yes. I did.

Did I expect the same outcome? No, I didn't. Did I get the same outcome? No, I did not.

I've been bucked off a horse. I got back on.

The outcome of a wingsuit skydive, one which enables more maneuverability, a slower freefall rate, greater glide distance, etc, is not death. While a rare wingsuit dive does result in a fatality, hundreds of thousands of others do not, and they happen globally all day every day. I guarantee they're happening as you're reading this right now.

If one is killed as a result of a wingsuit skydive, it does not mean that one will be killed if the situation is given a second go (assuming that one could rewind time in the first place). One outcome does not guarantee the other, unless you're like the F-16 pilot who was so stupid and blockheaded that he insisted he'd do everything that caused the mishap in the first place.

I've had several parachute failures requiring the use of a reserve parachute. I jumped again, and in each case, jumped the same parachutes again, same location, and in each case, I jumped again the same day (though not the same gear the same day, as it required an inspection and repack). I've attended to severe injuries on the drop zone, accompanied them to the hospital, and then turned around and made several jumps. I've had some bang-up landings, and turned around and jumped again. So yes, I have no issues with jumping again, and certainly understand that the outcome of one jump does not dictate the outcome of another.

I say that as one who has actually been there, and done that.

You're just a hotshot badass, that's all there is to it. Most people would heed the sign from the Almighty, but not you, no sir. Is 'Maverick' your call sign?

That 2000 word estimate wasn't far off the mark.

quote:

I say that as one who has actually been there, and done that.

Yeah, I dig the dig, but, umm, no, you have not 'been there and done that', hot shot. You're freaking still alive. You haven't experienced death, so you know as much about that guy's final experience as the rest of us. So sorry to disappoint you.

Pride goeth before the fall err flight.

We may invite you as key speaker for the upcoming Testosterone Festival.

___________________

The smushed guy lay prostrate and broken on the ground. Suddenly, his eyes opened wide and he sat up, emitting a long, loud gasp. He sat there wide-eyed for several seconds without taking another breath, then, gasping furiously, he looked about, feeling his body with both hands, "Wha- WHAT HAPPENED??!"

Suddenly, the brightest light he'd ever seen appeared before him. Turning his head away and shielding his eyes, he shouted "WHAT'S GOING ON??!"

A deep baritone voice seemed to come from everywhere, from all over the world and from inside of his head, "Fear not, my son," said the voice, "for, this day, thou hast been granted the greatest of gifts. Actually, its a re-gifting, but it's not like that time that your uncle gave you his socks for Christmas. You know, the ones his wife gave him, with the little bunnies on them."

"I don't understand!" said the formerly dead guy. "Tell me what happened! Was I in an accident??"

The voice chuckled. "Well, you could say that, I suppose. You 'accidentally' turned your internal organs into Jello, but thou hast been granted a second chance. Take off thine shoes from thy feet, for thou is on sacred gr- oh, wait, your shoes are over there. And over there. That was quite a bounce you took. Sundays are my day off, but Gabriel texted me a link to your story. Oh, sure, I'm all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful, creator and arbiter of all, but sometimes I get a little weary of mankind and their hijinx. You should hear the prayers I get- 'buy me a Lexus, Lord', 'Make my hooters bigger, Lord', that kind of thing."

"Is this really happening??"

"God didn't make little green apples and it don't rain in Indianapolis in the summertime, my son."

"WHAT??"

"Does thou jump from perfectly good airplanes because thou has a screw loose? Hast thou little riverboat captain fled thy wheelhouse?"

Standing up and brushing himself off, the formerly dead guy quickly reverted to his old self. "I fly with a wingsuit because someone has to push the envelope, and I am one of the.."

A tremendous clap of thunder shook the ground and the formerly dead guy felt his tongue cleave to his palate.

"Honor they father and thy mother," boomed the voice.

"Well, pop is gone but mom is..."

"Thy father is here with me now, in Paradise."

"Pop?"

"WHAT I TELL YOU?? HUH? WHAT I TELL YOU ABOUT THAT CRAZY STUNTIN', BOY??! YOU GOAN BREAK YO MOMMA'S HEART!!"



"Lord, that's uh, that's Samuel L. Jackson."

"Verily", spake the Almighty.

"That's not my dad."

There was a long pause.

"Lord?"

"Thou hast much to discuss with thine mother. Thou art a big boy now and can endure much."

"Uhh- wow, OK, I'm gonna go call mom now, Lord. Uh, thank you," he said as he awkwardly genuflected.

"Vaya con Dios, my son, and stay outta them airplanes."

"You bet, Lord."

Next thing you know, the formerly dead guy takes up the guitar and tours coffee houses singing Don McLean tunes. "Starry, starry night..."

This message has been edited. Last edited by: parabellum,

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Yeah, I dig the dig, but, umm, no, you have not 'been there and done that', hot shot. You're freaking still alive. You haven't experienced death, so you know as much about that guy's final experience as the rest of us. So sorry to disappoint you.

Well, Goddamn if you're not right.

I jumped out of a perfectly good airplane, and didn't die.

I guess it's not inevitable after all.

Being disingenuous and obtuse doesn't help support your argument, man. You know damn good and well that's not what I mean and you damn good and well that everyone here knows that people skydive all the time. Don't act clueless. It doesn't help you. 'Oh, I did this or that and survived, therefore...'

Come on. This wingsuit shit is far more dangerous than skydiving, so, just cut the shit. You're comparing an activity which has legitimate purposes- emergency egress from a crippled aircraft, rapid deployment of troops, etc- to a highly dangerous and reckless stunt of "flying" with a half-assed Superman get-up.

I think you know the kind of idealized male image you're attempting to project, but, guess what? You're just as mortal as the rest of us. Try saying that into the mirror from time to time.

I haven’t tried to read all the articles about the incident, but most seem to lack details about how the accident happened. The one exception I found here said “he appeared to misjudge his height.” I can only speculate why the other articles didn’t include that tidbit, but probably because they wanted to foster the notion that his crash was something that “just happened,” and he wasn’t to blame.

If someone jumps out of a plane over Kansas and glides with a wingsuit through clear air with no nearby obstacles the entire way before deploying his parachute, I can readily imagine that it’s not much more dangerous than other skydiving. But when discussing the safety of the endeavor it’s dishonest to include those “flights” with the ones in which the individual glides as close as possible to various solid objects like the ground near cliffs, rocky spires, etc. Those are the videos we can see to make us go, “Ooh!” and they are the ones that show recklessly dangerous stunts.

According to this article, “[T]he [wingsuit] airfoil isn't large enough to accumulate enough lift to push the flyer's weight upward through the air.” That means that once someone has dropped too low to avoid the ground, there’s nothing he can do to avoid crashing. That, of course, is the whole thrill: glide as low or as close as we dare and hope we didn’t “misjudge” something.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Yeah, I dig the dig, but, umm, no, you have not 'been there and done that', hot shot. You're freaking still alive. You haven't experienced death, so you know as much about that guy's final experience as the rest of us. So sorry to disappoint you.

Well, Goddamn if you're not right.

I jumped out of a perfectly good airplane, and didn't die.

I guess it's not inevitable after all.

Try it in a wing suit. Then move on to base jumping. Do it over and over again and then report back to us. Keep your eyes wide awake for that mythological bulls horn my genius friend. That bull is out there and getting gored by him will hurt, promise.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
I jumped out of a perfectly good airplane, and didn't die.

Really? I’ve been told* that most, if not all, jump planes are a long way from a perfectly good airplane.

*Told - I have no experience jumping. The only parachutes I own or have ever used are expensive seat/seat back cushions, and they don’t have reserves. When I asked the instructor about where the reserve was, he said, “This is your reserve. If you need to use this chute and it doesn’t open, it wasn’t your day.”

I always thought I oughta go jump sometime to see what it was like, but I just never got around to it. At this point, it wouldn’t happen until after the kids are out of the house, if then.

Seems to me everyone ought to be free to do what they want to do, regardless of how risky others think it is. If they end up getting their ticket punched, it is their ticket. After all, as one friend likes to say, “What the heck, we all gotta die of something.”

quote:

I had to push the limit to see where it was.

I really hate bullshit statements like this.

Ask the first wave at Utah Beach or Iwo Jima. Ask a grunt in the first wave of choppers into a hot LZ. Ask someone eating dirt under triple canopy while a 51 is chewing everything up.

Get my drift? The real limit is a body bag.

So go ahead and push the limit doing wheelies on a bike at 80 mph, or jumping out of airplanes without people trying to kill you from the ground.

Enjoy pushing your perceived limit, but remember that it is only a faint self-serving shadow of the real limit.

.