The comparison in wages for an entry level McDonalds worker is just for "order of magnitude." FWIW, ZipRecruiter says average pay for McDonalds workers in NYC is $56K. In poorer areas of the country, military wages may look better than they do in the big cities. But the big cities are where a lot of the young people are located...

My point is that military wages have fallen behind a bit, and may even not be competitive with comparable civilian jobs in the major cities (which don't carry the added demand of deployments and potential hardship and danger, which has been amply covered in movies and TV shows that young people watch). And remember that we want to recruit people for the military with higher education levels and technical skills where the military pay is probably further behind.

And of course we are in a period of relatively low unemployment -- always a factor in how many folks are willing to join the military.

In addition, we used to get a lot of military recruits from among young people who didn't have medical insurance. So if you had a family member who needed constant medical care, that was an incentive to join the military. The gradual increase in MedicAid across the board, and employment-based health insurance in many jobs, while not complete or all encompassing of everyone's medical needs, has cut into this motivation for joining the military and getting its free medical care.

Financial factors influence the decision to take a job -- in this case the military -- for almost everyone.

Full discolosure: I joined up for $288 a month, and the Army at the time was full of RA enlistees who had joined for $75 a month from the period per-VOLAR. They (and I) joined for a host of reasons, with money, per se, not being the main one. But pay still is an influencing factor for many recruits, and my reading tells me the pay is a bit low in comparison these days.

quote:

Originally posted by RoverSig:
A big problem is the pay. Or lack of it.

'snip'

If we cannot attract people because we cannot afford the bill, then we need to have a draft.

But -- warning! -- a draft that is not ruthlessly fair is very socially divisive. No student deferments, no deferments for mythical bone spurs, equal treatment for males and females, etc., would all be issues that need to be overcome for the draft to be fair.

We can afford it. Quit paying for proxy wars, quit starting shit that doesn't matter to us, quit playing silly games and we have a lot of walking around money.

Every household, every business, every corporation in America has a limit to its resources, except government and they spend foolishly. If we want to pay service volunteers rethink (if there ever was any thinking to begin with) where our dough goes.

Draft? No.

It can't be fair. There will be resistance and then there will be forced compliance and then there will be systematic resistance and purposeful personal disqualification.

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by corsair:
the hyper-dogmatic rigidity of the Marines..../QUOTE]

corsair, if you would, please expand on this a bit for us?

Marine Corps doesn't take too kindly to those who wish to change branches (within the USMC) or, when their MOS is overmanned/being down-sized, the opportunity to lateral to a different MOS doesn't happen too often. Obviously if you're a senior NCO there's some limitations however the ability to move into a different job as a junior NCO doesn't happen too often.

Not unusual to find 'former' Marines who are E-5,6, 7, who moved over to the Army or, Air Force, as their career path and/or ability to pivot within the USMC is very limited. As an officer, you can be moved into a staff, joint or, coalition billet and finish out your time or, find a new job.

got it, thanks

A draft would be very contentious. I don't think we are ready for that. But it is something to think about. Raising milpay a bit may be a lot easier than having a draft... perhaps there are other things in the $1.6T budget that can be cut?

With all the politics, and all of the controversy about military engagements around the world and "forever wars," you still need a credible military to defend the country and deter our enemies.

quote:

Originally posted by RoverSig:
With all the politics, and all of the controversy about military engagements around the world and "forever wars," you still need a credible military to defend the country and deter our enemies.

If only the United States military was used to defend the country.
We are suffering under an invasion on our own border. We refuse to defend ourselves.

I wouldn’t go in today, not with the giant douche nozzles running the clown show we call a military.

Short of a real, no shit war, like dec 7th or another 9/11 I’d also burn my draft card if the draft came back.

Of course if we really did go to war, for a legit reason I wouldn’t need a draft card as I would already be in line to sign up.

The military of today is not the military of forty years ago when I stood on a certain pair of yellow footprints and got that awesome haircut…

quote:

Originally posted by RoverSig:
A draft would be very contentious.

Last time was 'contentious'. This time I think it would be catastrophic.

The usual suspects would be at the boards and the entrance stations shrieking their time honored shriek but this time they are going to be reinforced by parents, grand parents, interested observers, a boat load of veterans (or so I think) not all of course but many who have up close and personal experience with Forever Wars abandonment, higher authority abandoning their oath, with the debacle at Kabul as an example where a fucking lieutenant colonel of Marines didn't have the authority to give a sniper clearance to fire and as he dithered over his career a dozen Marines and a corpsman, if I remember right, and over a hundred innocents got blown up.
I don't think it's a stretch to think a lot of younger veterans are going to advise younger brothers, nephews, friends that they ought to take up cross-stitch rather than submit to an authority that doesn't give a rat's ass about them.
And the reason for the losses can't be attributed to a dangerous mission, it's an obeisance to a pile of pencil necks in a room with a TV feed making decisions.
For the moment I won't even get into diversity promotions and fruits flakes and nuts in boss jobs.

Get drafted for that? Not my boys. Not my girls.

quote:

Originally posted by RoverSig:

I joined up for $288 a month

$83.20 for me, when I joined in 1956. Four years later, I was E-5 and my pay had just about doubled, to a bit over $160 / month.

I joined the Air Force in 1975 for $321/mo.

All those old starting rates look pretty good when compared to a historical gold price chart.

quote:

Originally posted by OcCurt:
I wouldn’t go in today, not with the giant douche nozzles running the clown show we call a military.

I still would. Has less to do with them, and more to do with me.

My son just got off a MEU. And I’m proud of him for it.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by RoverSig:
An E4 makes $30K. A person working at McDonalds makes $40K ($20 X 2000 hours).

Yes, servicemen deserve better pay, as do most public servants. But that income comparison is not apples to apples.

The burger flipper has to pay for housing, food, and health insurance out of their income. The E4 doesn't. So the E4 has substantially higher discretionary income than that hypothetical McDonalds worker, despite having a lower annual income.

In addition, McDonalds workers don't make $20 (except in California). The average across the rest of the country is ~$11, putting them well below the E4 even before you deduct all their additional expenses.

1st: I'd like to see an E-4 that only works 40 hours a week. 2nd: An E-4 has normally been in the military for at least 24 months. If McDude is still working McDonald's in 2 years, he's got other issues. Next comes the housing and food. You'd be surprised at how many E-4's are having to pay out of pocket because there isn't enough suitable housing which means they end up with a basic allowance for housing and subsistence. BAH/BAS is a cheaper way for the military to "provide" housing and meals, but it's extremely hard to find accommodations & utilities for the amount that one receives, which means the service member gets the shaft. Normally 2-3 guys will go in on a place together which eases some of the financial burden but creates an entirely different set of problems.

Not saying it's a good comparison, but an E-4 isn't pocketing as much as you'd think, and McDude won't suddenly get called up to go to some hot and filthy shithole in the middle of the night for the next 12 months, probably never being the same once he returns.


From the article:

"Another Army official pointed to partisan attacks from conservative lawmakers and media, which has an overwhelmingly white audience." Wanna bet they're a diversity hire? "In most cases, those attacks have zeroed in on the services being more inclusive for women, service members from racial minority groups and LGBTQ+ troops. No, the young applicants don't care about this stuff ."”

Wrong!!! I've got a few nephews that are prime recruiting targets that will never join because of the woke bullshit these "leaders" are pushing and it has nothing to do with parents or coaches or anyone else. They just don't agree with the ideology.

There is no real incentive anymore either? It's far easier to get into a trade and make a killing nowadays. Medical coverage? Magic muslim took care of that. A kid can be insured until 26 which means there's plenty of time to get into a career that offers health insurance and even if you're a schlub, there's Medicaid in most states (or they can do like all the illegals, just go to the ER and never pay). Housing? See my comments above. College? Just go take out a shit ton of loans and have the government "forgive" them. What else is there? Travel? Ha. There's great scenery at NTC and 29 Palms or out in the middle of the Pacific.

Now, let's talk about what happens to a service member after they've been rode hard and put up wet. The VA will fuck you 100 different ways and make you feel as if you're a burden. Wanna know why an average of 22 vets per day commit suicide? read this and watch the video

quote:

Originally posted by Lunasee:
I joined the Air Force in 1975 for $321/mo.

$4,732.61 a month today using gold as a control. About a thousand dollars more than current starting officer pay, if I’m reading this chart right.

quote:

Originally posted by Voshterkoff:

quote:

Originally posted by Lunasee:
I joined the Air Force in 1975 for $321/mo.

$4,732.61 a month today using gold as a control.

$1889 using the CPI inflation calculator.

LOL

Use a real number.

quote:

Originally posted by RoverSig:
A big problem is the pay. Or lack of it.

An E4 makes $30K. A person working at McDonalds makes $40K ($20 X 2000 hours).

Didn't take into account, BAS & BAH, plus incentive pays and recruitment bonuses. That said, across the services, E4s aren't working 40 hrs/week--I'd argue they are working more than that.

I get/got soooooooo tired of this DEI bullshit in the military.

In the military, you should not be celebrating diversity. Uniformity is the name of the game. In the military, the organization should not be bending over to accommodate the individual. The individual submits to the organization. It made me so mad when SGMA said "Hey, these are our mothers/daughters, they need to be able to express their femininity" and gave them greater leeway in 670-1. And don't get me started on the transgender awareness briefings. Why in the fuck are we accommodating them??


Rant off. This shit always pushes my buttons.

good thing there's nothing but world peace on the horizon

As retired Air Force who voluntarily joined ROTC during the latter half of the 1960s (Vietnam Era for those too young to remember or know), I agree with several of the above postings. I'd like to see the draft reinstated but to include women and all those lawfully in the United States. I'd also like to see both political parties embrace President George Washington's admonition in his farewell address to "avoid foreign entanglements"--unless US interests are directly affected, and even then, limit the engagement to specific goals and objectives. And lastly, remove all the politically correct BS which started with the Clinton Administration and Democratics in Congress at that time and only restarted and accelerated when the Democrats recaptured the White House. And lastly, remember across the board, that all federal programs are funded through taxes, which come out of your personal income; hold the Congress's power to tax and spend to a high standard through your vote!

First up, I (full-time 20+ years, now retired) would not encourage any youngster to join up into today’s military based upon the wokeism and politically correct crap that is being served up. But, I do agree that the troops are underpaid.

A quick-fix that doesn’t require any pay raises would be to EXEMPT FROM INCOME TAX all pay and allowances for all enlisted personnel (E-1 through E-9). This same tax exemption would apply to all company-grade officers (O-1 through O-3). You could then tax, at no more than 10%, the income of field grade officers (O-4 through O-6). Full disclosure; I retired as a Major (O-4). As for the flag ranks (generals and admirals), they get fully taxed at 30%, since they already overpaid for their positions.