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| Power is nothing without control |
Forgive my ignorance, but before Israel was formed, did the Palestinians have any sort of self governance, or were they just subjects of an unelected leader? Basically, who ran the place before it became Israel? Has there been any state other than Israel that has offered to cede land or let them govern themselves? It seems like Israel has actually offered the Palestinians more independence than they have had in the past century, but I know history goes back a lot longer than a century in that region. - Bret | |||
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They are still not going to stop the 6 Billion from going to Iran. _________________________ "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." Mark Twain | |||
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Coin Sniper |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine  Pronoun: His Royal Highness and benevolent Majesty of all he surveys 343 - Never Forget Its better to be Pavlov's dog than Schrodinger's cat There are three types of mistakes; Those you learn from, those you suffer from, and those you don't survive. | |||
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You may be confusing with Sinai, which Israel gave back to Egypt but on the provision that a UN security force, to include the US was permanently stationed there along with Egyptian forces...kindof a pathetic DMZ. Gaza was occupied fully by Israel until 2005 when Ariel Sharon had all Israeli forces & equipment removed and all Jewish settlements dismantled. Israel controls all land and sea routes into Gaza, including air space. Afterwards, Gaza's internal issues was controlled by the Palestinian Authority/Fatah, then shortly after Hamas; for all intents they're a semi-autonomous state. The infrastructure that wasn't dismantled by Israel like office buildings, greenhouses (growing food), irrigation for agriculture and homes, along with electrical lines, was stripped bare by hoarding Palestinian's leaving Gaza with minimal domestic capacity. Basically they destroyed their own home once the landlord walked away. | |||
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| Banned |
Thank you. He doesn't specifically mention the offer to hand Gaza under Egypt rule though and I can't remember where did I get the idea it happened. It would've been a perfect solution, but it would mean the current people in power there won't be in power anymore. PS. The parallels with another currently hot war are striking, down to "if one side stops fighting there will be peace but if the other one stops fighting - it will cease to exist". | |||
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No. The Ottoman Empire controlled the area until they lost and dissolved after WWI. The UK controlled most the area until the post-WWII troubles where old colonial powers cast loose their former holdings, which inlcuded the establishment of a Zionist state (Israel) and the independence of Egypt, Jordan and Syria along with Lebanon (from France). | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower  |
See, this is the kind of stuff of which I have become acutely aware. Every word of that story may be true, but this kind of propaganda comes out in the early stages of every major conflict these days, and it makes me cringe. "Angel of Nir Am." God, I wish people wouldn't do this. I understand why they do it. I understand the need to personify these tales, but how many times have we heard stories like this, and they turn out to be false? Jessica whats-her-name in the invasion of Iraq- the female soldier who was taken hostage. Stories about he she fired her rifle during the attack until she had no more ammunition, and then it turns out she was knocked unconscious by an RPG at the beginning of the attack and was out like a light for the whole thing. The "Ghost of Ukraine or whatever"- the Ukrainian pilot. Oh, he was shot down over and over but valiantly, he kept coming back to shoot down the evil Russians. Turns out, he didn't even exist. The Ukrainian seaman who were on some island. Threatened with death by the Russians, they were defiant, telling Ivan to go fuck himself. Yeah, never happened. | |||
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| Coin Sniper |
Perhaps in hope there is truth. Maybe it matters less whether these single stories are true, than the actions of those inspired by the story to achieve similar feats. Pronoun: His Royal Highness and benevolent Majesty of all he surveys 343 - Never Forget Its better to be Pavlov's dog than Schrodinger's cat There are three types of mistakes; Those you learn from, those you suffer from, and those you don't survive. | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower |
No, in truth there is truth, and nowhere else. You're describing one of the primary functions of propaganda. Pretty-sounding stories, inspirational stories, stories that tell me what I want to hear- if they're not true, they are lies. Do you want to be lied to? I don't. | |||
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Member |
Hell No. I get pissed off at the, "Based on a true story" movies. That means there's most likely nothing true about them and it's all false. But the the "true story" part is supposed to make it legit. It sounds like someone trying to get clicks. | |||
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Oh, there’s a shocker! One terrorist group siding with another.  Both of them couldn’t choke on a dump truck full of flaming dick quick enough! I hope all of the liberal Jews here that sided with the bowel movement sees this and is able to live with themselves. Added link: https://h5.newsbreakapp.com/mp...3.39.0.50&platform=0 ______________________________________________________________________ "When its time to shoot, shoot. Dont talk!" “What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It’s not good at much else.” —Author Tom Clancy | |||
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^^^ No, they don't stand w/ the terrorists. They stand in a free country. I recommend they go over there and actually stand w/ them. That would be great. | |||
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| Yew got a spider on yo head  |
What a smug piece of shit. He will regret showing his true colors. | |||
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Member |
Most of them are radical islamists, haters of Israel, haters of the US, haters of anyone not like them. So who cares if they have no place to go. If you let them to your neighborhood they will hate you too. Sometimes the best solutions are the worst. Lover of the US Constitution Wile E. Coyote School of DIY Disaster | |||
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| 10mm is The Boom of Doom  |
I understand the suspicions regarding the "Angel of Nir Am" being a possible or even probable fabrication. However, setting aside those doubts for a minute, I did note some interesting things. According to Wikipedia, as of 2021, the kibbutz of Nir Am had a population of 683. According to another site (Statista) 28.17% of Israel is under the age of 15. Using that figure as a proxy for Nir Am, that would mean 490 people 15 years of age or over. Now some children under 15 might be able to use a weapon to defend themselves and their family, but some adults might be too infirm to do so. So let's stick with the 490 figure as a rough estimate of those capable of bearing arms. The primary action supposedly taken by the "Angel" was to distribute "12" guns from the armory. Since guns are apparently stored in an armory, and needed to be distributed, it is reasonable to assume (within the confines of the story) that these were the only 12 guns available in the entire kibbutz. That is only one adult in 40 was able to be armed. The vast majority were unarmed and effectively defenseless. If (and that is a mighty big IF) the story is true, or even partially true, 12 armed people defended their village. Imagine what 490 could have done. When there is a rifle behind every blade of grass, invasion is impossible. God Bless and Protect the Once and Future President, Donald John Trump. | |||
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Just before the start of the Yom Kippur War, Prime Minister Golda Meir hemmed uncertainly for a few moments but then came to a clear decision. All the intelligence indicated an attack was imminent, the Israeli's watched the Egyptian and Syrian troop movements masked as just another training exercise by them. But, there would be no preemptive strike. Israel might be needing American assistance soon and it was imperative that it would not be blamed for starting the war. 'If we strike first, we won't get help from anybody,' she said. I'm sure the chatter was out there a few weeks/months ago, unfortunately no one likely knew to what extent Hamas intended to infiltrate and attack. But now that Hamas struck and is known worldwide as the aggressor, it certainly frees up Israel to act accordingly and with justification on the world stage. To speak on another point of Palestinians being taken in by Jordan or Egypt - after the 1948 war, the Palestinians were given Jordanian citizenship. Twenty years later, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan was extremely worried the Palestinians were going to outnumber their own home borne citizens, and start causing issues on the terrorist and political front. The Jordanians stripped their citizenship leaving them "stateless". They didn't want them because they were troublemakers - everyone in the region knew this. The regional history is an exceptionally fun rabbit hole of fascinating reading from the Ottoman Empire, the Balfour Declaration, immigration, and all of the subsequent wars. To understand it all requires taking the context from the minuscule area, to the tribal histories, to the regional powers, to their standing on the world stage. As troubling as all of this is, we are absolutely living and witnessing history being made. And most of America is sadly oblivious. | |||
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Good summary Lover of the US Constitution Wile E. Coyote School of DIY Disaster | |||
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| 10mm is The Boom of Doom |
My point is that it is the responsibility of every law abiding adult to have a rifle at home and a pistol on their hip to defend themselves, their family and their community. It is the responsibility of government to not just permit it, but to encourage it. "Trust in God and keep your powder dry." ~Old Noll God Bless and Protect the Once and Future President, Donald John Trump. | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower |
Victor Davis Hanson spells it out. It's worth noting that everyone paying attention to the horror of the savagery senses instinctively that, this time, it's different. This time, it's gone too far. Even those who gleefully cheer on these psychopaths now realize that this was too much to bear, and that Israel will not listen to those calling for them to be "reasonable". As VDH says, Hamas finally got its wish, but now, the mood has changed. https://twitter.com/VDHanson/s.../1711878944683958319 The Late, Great Hamas Finally Got Its Wish–And . . . ? Ever since Hamas was “elected” to run Gaza, and then followed the usual “one election/one time” Middle-East formula, it has bragged nonstop that its agenda was to erase Israel off the face of the earth (cf. the wall map in the office of our Representative Tlaib). Its unabashed nihilist boasts resonated throughout the Palestinian “movement.” Its fiery threats delighted the Arab street. Indeed, Hamas was soon celebrated as the most “authentic” of the radical Palestinian terrorist movements. Which cadre of thugs could top its end-of-days rhetoric, its assured and steady supply of money and weapons from Iran, its satanic eagerness to mutilate and dismember, and the sanctuary and financial wherewithal offered to it by our “ally” Qatar? None. Since it was viewed as the most “volatile” and creepy of the Palestinian factions, and the most useful to Iran, the Obama and Biden Administrations appeased its murderers. Was it not part of their hare-brained grand strategy of empowering theocratic Iran, and its Syrian, Hezbollah, and Hamas hirelings? Their campaign (remember the “they literally know nothing” media and the Obama “echo chamber” created by a boastful Ben Rhodes?) was to forge these disparate Islamists into a crescent of resistance to Israel and any “moderate” Arab regime (recall the Obama-Biden transitory hatred of the Gulf sheikdoms). The result would be “creative tension” —as well as payback for the Israeli election of Netanyahu. Through this formula, Obama believed he could always pressure Israel to grant concessions to radical Palestinians, thanks to the looming threat of an ever menacing (and soon to be nuclear) Iran, with help from Obama’s other friends—the then Muslim Brotherhood government in Egypt and his pal, the neo-Ottomanist and anti-Semite Erdogan of Turkey, Obama’s self-described personal liaison to the Islamic world. Yes, of course, this was sheer madness—if perhaps characteristic of Obama’s well-known orneriness. Perhaps someday soon, a few disinterested historians might even record that the current nightmare in Israel is the logical end-result of what Barack Obama, John Kerry (remember his Trump-era Paris reconnaissance with the Iranians?), Ben Rhodes, Valerie Jarrett, Robert Malley, Joe Biden, Antony Blinken, and a host of other incompetent but otherwise haughty and dangerous people once conjured up. A defiant, and empowered murderous Hamas was one of the many dividends of their appeasement and grand Middle-East schemes—given the eagerness of the Obama and Biden administrations to send hundreds of millions of dollars into Gaza, despite warnings from their own experts that such cash would enhance terrorism and abet the evil work of Hamas with an American financial stamp of legitimacy. Hence, a soon to be nuclear Iran, freed from sanctions, had enough money (remember the nocturnal cash pallets on the Tehran tarmac?) to fund its surrogate global death squads. Hamas has killed Jewish civilians for nearly two decades, always escaping the full wrath of Israel retaliation by appealing to the amoral consciousness of leftwing European and American governments. It counted on ample help from both Iran and Arab regimes, along with Turkey, which always screams “instability” at the first sign of Israeli retaliation. The blustering Hamas has now murdered 1,000 Jews in their homes, preferring especially to gun down children, reportedly behead babies, torture the doomed, rape the helpless, execute the elderly, and brutalize women—and topping the killing off in good SS fashion by gleeful dismemberment and desecration of Jewish corpses. So, they finally got their wish for their own version of the Holocaust, for what they had always bragged would be the “final” Israel-ending war—as their cowardly elders announced last Saturday from their protected enclaves. Yes, Hamas promised their mass killing of innocents would ignite the Muslim world, incite simultaneous attacks on Israel from Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and perhaps Egypt—all as their planned anniversary replay of the Yom Kippur War’s first 48 hours. And it may—or may not. The ebullient people of Gaza seemed initially enthralled at videos of mutilated Jews, and showed their zeal by spitting on hostages carried back home for supposed Roman-like triumphs before their public sacrifices. Videos of the gruesome killings of Jews were hot downloads on Gaza mobile phones. Now mutilating dead Israelis, now boasting how brave their sons were in slaying unarmed jews inside Israel, Gazans assumed a shocked Israel would capitulate. Would not its megaphones in the West characteristically protect them and restrain Israel? Could not they themselves always ensure a few thousand of their own civilians be sacrificed as expendable human shields of their missiles pads, and thus become necessary fuel for their boilerplate accusations of “war crimes” that usually curtailed Israeli retribution? But now the Israeli retaliation seems oblivious to all that. It may not be like the past incursions into Gaza that were manipulated by a cowardly Hamas to gain media sympathy for “collateral damage” that they themselves had engineered. Predictably, as Israel ramps up the air attacks and prepares for the ground assault, the global media is showing a concern for civilian collateral damage in a way it never quite did for murdered Jewish innocents and beheaded infants. Western governments are terrified of Middle East killers who may return to their previous attacks on their European citizens. After all, Western leftwing suicidal immigration policies have ensured large unassimilated Muslim populations. Millions have fled the self-created violence and tyranny of the Middle East only to cheer it on from a safe distance in their adopted Western homelands, whose welcoming of these “refugees” is now so often reciprocated with sheer contempt for the apologetic hosts. Nonetheless, the Gaza crowds of 48 hours ago who were boasting their sons murdering with impunity and spat on bound defenseless women, are now aggrieved. But they might as well be barking at the moon about the supposed “unfairness” of the Israeli air counterattack. Among the rubble of once Hamas high-rises they are weeping for media cameras, calling on a corrupt and anti-Semitic UN for accustomed relief, threatening on spec the West with who knows what (is it now infant beheading or body dismemberment?), and in general suddenly quite unhappy about their “final” war they just recently boasted was all but won. Will the heroic legions of Hamas who beheaded and raped now pour out in the streets to fight the IDF and push them into the sea as promised? Perhaps not? Some final thoughts: Why has Iran gone from bragging three days ago about its training and tutelage of the Hamas killers suddenly to pleading that while it is certainly delighted about the beheadings, rapes, executions, and mutilations, it technically had no actionable role in ensuring them? The truth is that a Hamas right now is alternately threatening and begging Western governments, beseeching its suddenly mum Iranian suppliers, whining that Hezbollah and the PNA have not yet sufficiently shared the bloodletting of this war, and generally railing for more jihad from a few of its increasingly so-so, nonplused Middle-Eastern sponsors. Hamas fears it may have boxed itself in, with two American aircraft carriers between it and Iran, with private satisfaction from many Arab states that their nuisance Hamas might at last have committed suicide through its mass homicide, with even fanatic supporters hard-pressed to make their “moral” case for the beheading of babies, and with a half-million IDF soldiers headed their way to deliver upon them divine justice, perhaps in the Lincolnesque Second Inaugural sense of “the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.” Translated, that means for the first time in its existence an unholy Hamas may not get out of its self-created rendezvous with what it has so duly earned, given there is now no assurance of third-party relief and thus no restraint on Israel. Even a shaken and shamed Biden administration—guilty of an open border and its de facto support for Hamas and Iran, but suddenly scared of a furious election-cycle American public—may for a while not call off Israel. The arrogant but half-educated Harvard crowd, the European Islamists, the woke and pampered anti-Semites on Western campuses, the AOC socialists, the pro-Hamas Squad, the BLM chorus who cheered on the Hamas glider death attack, of course CAIR, and all the usual suspects for now are as furious as they are impotent—petulant that for once, just this once, and for a while longer at least, no one is listening to their oh so tired amoral defense of the indefensible. | |||
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Get Off My Lawn |
The Israelis promise the rest of Gaza will be Tent Cities, this is part of it.  I would be willing to bet that Hamas now are thinking that they may have bitten off more that they can chew. "I’m not going to read Time Magazine, I’m not going to read Newsweek, I’m not going to read any of these magazines; I mean, because they have too much to lose by printing the truth"- Bob Dylan, 1965 | |||
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