Anybody who's worked with or, been involved with US SOF has known this was coming. I've only worked with the Navy and Army side, and it was very apparent there were issues with a number individuals, their leadership and the culture that was allowed to flourish over the last 20-years. Before anybody goes on about the warfighter comes first and should get every accommodation, this isn't about promoting or, advancing careerists over pipe-hitters, it's about accountability and responsibility within the immediate and larger environment. Read the entire article, then read the report. This was a hot topic at SHOT show amongst various circles. Changes are coming, because changes weren't made before, and certain units are not going to be happy.

Special operations has an entitlement problem. Here’s how they intend to fix it

quote:

After news reports broke that a SEAL team’s raucous 4th of July party had gotten them sent home from an Iraq deployment, the head of Special Operations Command had enough. He ordered an extensive review of the command, tasked with discovering what was rotting away at the professionalism special operations had touted for decades.

What they found, according to a 69-page report released Tuesday, is that an obsession with tactical skill and deployments over everything has eroded leadership across the command. Coupled with an insidious sense of entitlement, the environment across SOCOM’s components has fostered the rash of misconduct scandals that have plagued the organization over the past few years.

“Knowing what is right requires a leadership presence and commitment and understanding,” SOCOM boss Army Gen. Richard Clarke told reporters Tuesday. “And most importantly, training the leadership that is junior to them on those same things.”

There are 16 specific recommendations laid out in the report, but the larger issue will be changing a deep-seated and closely-protected culture that values engagement of enemies in direct combat to the detriment of nearly all else.

“Sometimes character is not held in as high regard as competence,” Clarke said. “And the two have to be linked.”

...

quote:

sent home from an Iraq deployment, the head of Special Operations Command had enough. He ordered an extensive review of the command, tasked with discovering what was rotting away at the professionalism special operations had touted for decades.

What they found, according to a 69-page report released Tuesday, is that an obsession with tactical skill and deployments over everything has eroded leadership across the command. Coupled with an insidious sense of entitlement, the environment across SOCOM’s components has fostered the rash of misconduct scandals that have plagued the organization over the past few years.

“Knowing what is right requires a leadership presence and commitment and understanding,” SOCOM boss Army Gen. Richard Clarke told reporters Tuesday. “And most importantly, training the leadership that is junior to them on those same things.”

interesting read. I don't generally keep up on things like this.

That being said, I can see how pulling leadership and trainers out of rotation could create these kinds of problems. Put that over nearly 17 years of war.... I can see how it would grow.

This happens in every war.

The standards and rules get relaxed during war, the troops lose a lot of that garrison discipline mentality, it goes too far then it gets reigned way back in and the cycle resets.

You spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, maybe even millions trading these guys so you don’t want them to just leave the service and get a 6 figure job as a private contractor/consultant/etc. When they bend the rules, people look the other way. The reliance on them during the war on terror has made them very high profile. I cannot recall ever having met a Navy SEAL but I’ve met plenty of Green Berets and they were all very professional and serious Soldiers.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:


The standards and rules get relaxed during war, the troops lose a lot of that garrison discipline mentality, it goes too far then it gets reigned way back in and the cycle resets.

agree. it's not rocket science.

it all boils down to leadership and enforcing standards regardless of of how 'Special' a force is.

It sounds petty but for example I am not fond of letting rank-and-file SF grow beards to 'blend in' with the locals -- ie relaxation of grooming standards. Same thing with everybody being on first name basis in a unit...

you're a US GI -- look like one and then maybe you'll act like one

it goes way deeper than that obviously


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A Special Boat Team launches right up the street from me. On each occasion I’ve approached them to say thank you, the attitude was crap and they behaved with a holier than thou mentality

Good friend and neighbor, whom was 32yrs active Navy and W-4 approached them and got the same attitude one afternoon. After a brief conversation with the ranking member a change of attitude was seen quickly.

As John W. Campbell, the science fiction editor, pointed out, it’s not power that corrupts but immunity. We’ve seen it in recent times with politicians and agents of Federal agencies that believed they could get away with anything because they have so often in the past. It’s not surprising that it can happen in military special operations organizations if no one is monitoring what they’re doing because they’re “special,” and that includes their activities that can be hidden behind the cloak of secrecy and need to know.

Unfortunately it’s a lesson that must be learned over and over. I retired as an Army CID agent over 30 years ago, and one of the last things I was involved in was investigating the illegal activities of members of other secret special groups that were subject to little oversight and consequently fell prey to the same temptations.

quote:

Originally posted by snwghst:
A Special Boat Team launches right up the street from me. On each occasion I’ve approached them to say thank you, the attitude was crap and they behaved with a holier than thou mentality

Good friend and neighbor, whom was 32yrs active Navy and W-4 approached them and got the same attitude one afternoon. After a brief conversation with the ranking member a change of attitude was seen quickly.

Screw SBUs. Those guys in New Orleans used to operate out of Panama. Almost (almost is key word) all of the crew on boats have washed out of BUDS, EOD, or Navy dive school.

quote:

Originally posted by PD:

quote:

Originally posted by snwghst:
A Special Boat Team launches right up the street from me. On each occasion I’ve approached them to say thank you, the attitude was crap and they behaved with a holier than thou mentality

Good friend and neighbor, whom was 32yrs active Navy and W-4 approached them and got the same attitude one afternoon. After a brief conversation with the ranking member a change of attitude was seen quickly.

Screw SBUs. Those guys in New Orleans used to operate out of Panama. Almost (almost is key word) all of the crew on boats have washed out of BUDS, EOD, or Navy dive school.

These guys out of Stennis. SBT-22 or 23 I believe

quote:

Originally posted by PD:

quote:

Originally posted by snwghst:
A Special Boat Team launches right up the street from me. On each occasion I’ve approached them to say thank you, the attitude was crap and they behaved with a holier than thou mentality

Good friend and neighbor, whom was 32yrs active Navy and W-4 approached them and got the same attitude one afternoon. After a brief conversation with the ranking member a change of attitude was seen quickly.

Screw SBUs. Those guys in New Orleans used to operate out of Panama. Almost (almost is key word) all of the crew on boats have washed out of BUDS, EOD, or Navy dive school.

So they're no good, is that what you're saying? They're bad sailors?

There's a lot of issues to be made about the manpower pipeline the Navy utilizes to find candidates to fill their SOF ranks. Being assholes to the public has more to do with the unit leadership and how they set the tone/environment setting, then how guys got there. If I recall, the SBU leadership triad are SEAL billets.

Not surprising and I see most of the issues with NSW / SEALS / SBT vs the Army guys I am in regular contact with.

The large difference I see is the Army still sticks to a lot of the military discipline / courtesy / rank structure, whereas the SEALS take pride in being completely informal and lazy when it comes to even remote military discipline. That bleeds over to crappy planning for training events to the point you laugh at how fucked up things can get.

We used to work extensively with NSW / SEAL training but honestly I haven't been sad to let that stuff wither away and we only go after those jobs when we can get a very high margin, because otherwise it isn't worth dealing with their shit / unpreparedness for peanuts. Whereas there are Army units we will work nearly at cost (occasionally) and they are appreciative as heck at our can do and flexibility.

Where did I say they are bad sailors? The standards are high and if they don’t meet them they’ll end up somewhere else. I will say many have attitude issues as described in an earlier post. No matter what you do in the military, the public citizens are the ones paying for your salary and toys. The public holds active duty personnel in high regard. Those in uniform should treat them with respect.

These have certainly been building uncomfortable issues in evolution for some time. Sigfreund has it right.

No military service, but friends in the SOF world...

The tolerance of criminality is a bad thing, at all levels. Petraeus should be doing life. Hilary and that punk who took the nuclear engine room selfie should have served their full sentences.

When people betraying the nation aren’t prosecuted, it will cause discipline issues for lesser crimes.

In large part, and not just SOF, I’m encountering more and more military who are convinced DC does not have their backs/will leave them to hang at the drop of a hat.

That their cynicism is correct, makes things all the worse.

I don’t know any seals, to clarify - and the ones I do know would have gone a bit “nuts” if anyone didn’t pass a pee test...

In general, the Navy dive community has always tolerated relaxed grooming standards and addressed almost everyone up and down the chain-of-command by first names or nicknames. That’s never led to a breakdown of morale, order and discipline. IMO, this 20 year war in the sandbox is creating issues we’ve never seen before.

I have not encountered many SEALs, very few actually, but I can say that the SEALs I have met from the Vietnam era are very, very different compared to the ones I have met from the modern era.

I met a Vietnam era SEAL who was permanently disabled and the guy couldn't have been more humble. This guy was written about in books and everything, but you would never know it. Those guys now....seem a little different.

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
You spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, maybe even millions trading these guys so you don’t want them to just leave the service and get a 6 figure job as a private contractor/consultant/etc. When they bend the rules, people look the other way. The reliance on them during the war on terror has made them very high profile. I cannot recall ever having met a Navy SEAL but I’ve met plenty of Green Berets and they were all very professional and serious Soldiers.

I don't know that I have ever met a SEAL, but I have met a lot of Green Berets. Have had probably 2 dozen of them at our house, some spent the night, others just stopped to say hello but the Mrs. convinced them to stay for a home cooked meal.

I can, without doubt that those guys are the best of the best. But they have all been in the SF command for at least 6-7 years.

Some of you may remember "Nate" who is 100% disabled, still in uniform, still making trips to the sand box. As a matter of fact, he just returned from an unexpected assignment to solve some "organization" problems. I don't know all the details as I have not had a chance to speak to him in person. I do know that he was sent there to clean up a mess. He did so. Including reading the riot act to a few officers that could not find their asses with both hands and a Geiger counter!

4 times Nate was recommended for the Silver Star, and each time he refused, saying he had done nothing that any of the other guys would not have done in the same situation. Probably true but none-the-less, he did it. Anyway, they finally awarded him the Bronze Star (V) and told him he had no choice in the matter.

They made him "acting" Sgt. Major on that last trip over there to give him a little more clout in cleaning up the mess. Note that the mess was not within a SF unit.

He got that job done! They have offered him E8 slots before, but he refuses as that would take him off his team. So their answer is to make him "acting" E8 which he cannot refuse.

quote:

Originally posted by AirmanJeff:
I met a Vietnam era SEAL who was permanently disabled and the guy couldn't have been more humble. This guy was written about in books and everything, but you would never know it. Those guys now....seem a little different.

We had a couple of retired pre-OEF/OIF SEALs working for us and they were the humblest group of cats you ever met.

True quiet professionals and even they commented about the changes in the Teams.

Now the joke around SOCOM is the "SEAL Book / Movie of the Month".

Shortly after the Grenada invasion in 1983, several enlisted members were caught shooting an AK "bring-back" on a firebreak (dirt road). They were promptly tried and sent to Leavenworth.

They were all released and reinstated after it was discovered that a General had brought back an entire case of AKs in a Blackhawk. They didn't want to prosecute the General so they had to let everyone go.

That's the way it is with military justice; it has to apply to everyone or it applies to no one.

There were issues with Delta at one time. You had guys writing books, teaching confidential TTPs to SWAT teams, etc, etc. They couldn't really crack down by way of NDAs since there were so many violators.

Today, Delta has been reformed into a truly clandestine unit. Everyone will honor their NDAs, no matter what their rank. The unit is no longer called Delta, probably an attempt to break with the past - or past mistakes. The public hears little about them today.

I would say that the SEALs need a similar renaissance. Either they are going to be a semi-public organization or they're going to be a true clandestine unit. The choice needs to be made.... and probably will be made.

Don't be offended if you approach these guys and they brush you off. There are a lot of unsavory types who like to meddle or cause trouble. They get tired of dealing with them.

Lastly,.... and most importantly to those making judgements.... these guys are not saints. In order to be effective, you have to be a little like the people you're hunting. The trick, as I was always told, is knowing how far is too far. The rules apply to everyone. There are a number of guys in prison who went too far.

Food for thought.

.... and so it goes,

V.