I have not watched this series, or studied the subject.

I can't believe that we still fight each other, as we did in the Crusades, so many years later.

At the same time, I cannot help but wonder if the only way to stop conflict is absolute and total military success of one party over the other.

I learned about plenary indulgence and the 2 (3?) houses of islam (islam and war). Never even heard the terms until this video series.

Seems like this would keep the fire burning in the devoted for awhile.

But again - I'm just a newbie and all this is new to me and very complicated and nuanced in ways I can't even imagine yet.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:

quote:

break the strangle-hold religion & aristocracies had over society

I think "religious institutions" is more appropriate. In the instance of the Crusades, and it's affiliated Christianity, the affiliated religion itself does not promote damaging/problematic behavior.

Correct, thank you for making that distinction.

My head is swimming with countless stupid questions that bare my ignorance. Things like, while I'm familiar with England, France and Germany, what are Turks and Kurds? Who are the byzantines? Who occupied Asia Minor? What's the different between the kingdom of Jerusalem and Palestine? Are references to Palestine here a region or a country? What are Romans and why does it have a German leader? Where are Italians in all this? How are all the people in this region ethnically different? Serbs, Turks, Kurds, Byzantines, zegnids, etc.

I'm learning some new stuff but now I have a hundred questions. When does it end?

^^^^^^^now you’re going into forest. If you follow your developing curiosity, you’ll likely be years in study. I don’t say that with dread. It’s fascinating history. You’re entering the history of civilizations in the Mediterranean, Europe, North Africa, Middle East, Asia. The rise, fall and eclipse of nations/civilizations is potentially a life long journey in archaeology, anthropology, geopolitics, religious tension and human nature.

My advice is to start at the beginning of recorded history and work forward following the trail of events. At the intersections, make a note of trails of lesser priority to follow and continue on the one most interesting at the moment.

Be patient. History isn’t going anywhere. Take a break if you get overwhelmed. Most importantly, be careful of your sources.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
what are Turks and Kurds? The Turks are the current people of Turkey they spent a long time called the Ottomans, but same same. The Kurds are a Christian ethnic group that exist between south eastern Turkey, Syria, and Iraq, they are currently fighting for an independent "Kurdistan."
Who are the byzantines?
That is the Eastern roman empire, as Rome got to big the empire split, the western capital was Rome, the eastern capital was Constantinople (now called Istanbul)
Who occupied Asia Minor?
Lots of people, it's where modern day Turkey is now
What's the different between the kingdom of Jerusalem and Palestine?
Who ruled what, however the Kingdom of Jerusalem was a kingdom around the city ruled by the European victors of the first crusade
Are references to Palestine here a region or a country?
little bit of both, it'd be best to think of the area of Southern modern day Israel
What are Romans and why does it have a German leader?
After the collapse of Rome in the mid 400's the German barbarians assumed the mantle of Holy Roman Empire, it lasted until Napoleon came and ended it (thus his "legitimacy" of calling himself Emperor)
Where are Italians in all this?
That's a long complex question but ultimately there were a lot of small kingdoms all over the Italian peninsula, San Marino is kind of a last man standing, the Italians finally coalesced in 1914.
How are all the people in this region ethnically different? Serbs, Turks, Kurds, Byzantines, zegnids, etc.
Same as Spanish are different from French, and French from Irish, and Irish from Dane. it's a big part of the world.
I'm learning some new stuff but now I have a hundred questions.
If you'd like I can answer more

When does it end?
It's still going on, I'd say it's over when Christ returns.

Here is a short video, from a Pro-Christian perspective. it's by no means all encompassing but does provide context.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aFkoX6g1fE

Thanks guys!

This was just supposed to be a short, quick diversion. Learn a little bit, kill some time. I didn’t expect this to spawn 1000 questions and a multitude of things to learn more about. It’s turning into a real Pandora’s box of how much I don’t know. The more you learn, the more you realize how much you don’t know.

There is so much to do. I want to learn piano. Violin. Music appreciation. Art appreciation and why I’m attracted to works by Monet and Renoir. What is Impressionism and why do I like it?

And now this. I’ve got about 1000 historical topics that I want to look into and learn about. Like how did Muslims end up in control of the Iberian peninsula? Where were Russians in this period - the series only talks about Europe east to Germany, Byzantine regions, Asia Minor. Nothing about Russia or china. Or India. Or anything south of Egypt. I’m wondering now when those regions come into the picture. Perhaps they are already, just not in the crusades context.

Much to learn…

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
This was just supposed to be a short, quick diversion. Learn a little bit, kill some time. I didn’t expect this to spawn 1000 questions and a multitude of things to learn more about.

It always starts that way.

That's a fascinating period in history and there are a lot of aspects worth digging into.

quote:

Originally posted by joel9507:

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
This was just supposed to be a short, quick diversion. Learn a little bit, kill some time. I didn’t expect this to spawn 1000 questions and a multitude of things to learn more about.

It always starts that way.

That's a fascinating period in history and there are a lot of aspects worth digging into.

I mean, why didn't you start with a easy history question like what was World War 2? ;-)

quote:

Originally posted by 4MUL8R:
I can't believe that we still fight each other, as we did in the Crusades, so many years later.

At the same time, I cannot help but wonder if the only way to stop conflict is absolute and total military success of one party over the other.

Ever since Muhammad decided that his religion should be spread by the sword rather than by persuasion.

quote:

Ever since Muhammad decided that his religion should be spread by the sword rather than by persuasion.

I am no scholar of Islam; nor of Christianity. Is it possible that the Muslims of the Crusades were as perverted in their thinking as the Christians? Had they also strayed from their biblical text and prophets' and messiah's wishes? Are they so affected by that perversion still today, where Christians have since had the good sense to abandon it? I don't know the answers to these questions but, as someone who believes in referring to the source material in my faith, I wonder what the Quran and Mohammed actually have to say on the matter. This is an interesting article I found just now, in performing brief research.

https://www.islamin500.org/isl...-no-coercion-allowed

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
Like how did Muslims end up in control of the Iberian peninsula?

After conquering the Middle East, they continued their Westward march taking over Egypt, the rest of North Africa and set out across the Straits of Gibraltar. The Visigoths, who controlled Hispania for about 300yrs after the fall of Rome, were consumed with infighting and petty squabbles, ripe conditions for a stronger, more organized force to come take over.

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Where were Russians in this period -

Russia, for all intents was just getting settled by those Vikings who traveled Eastward and along the Volga river. Those Vikings who intermarried with the local Slavs, developed a mishmash of varying principalities, earldoms and other petty kingdoms. Over time they coalesced to form the Kievan Rus state, the first Eastern Slavic power. They mainly traded with the Byzantines, eventually adopting Christianity after the conversion of Vladimir the Great and his marriage to the daughter of the Byzantine Emperor. During all of this, the Eastern areas was feeling increased pressure from Mongol invaders, many of the cities (including Kiev) were forced to pay tribute or, submit to being a vassal to the Mongol Khans. Attacks and Mongol rule continued up until the 15th century, Muslim areas like all of Central Asia, India, Arabia and Iran/Iraq were dealing with Mongol raids. In 1258 Baghdad was captured by the Mongols and enacted arguably the greatest single event slaughter of human beings ever.

A lot to learn. The level of my ignorance - I've heard many of these terms before but I never knew what the really meant. I don't really know who the vikings were other than I believe they are people from the northern europe region (scandinavia region?). Don't know who the Slavs are. Many of these unknown to me - I don't know how Byzantines, Slavs, Bulgars, Arabs, Persians, etc are differentiated ethnically. It sounds like Byzantines are actually a mix of various ethnicities (but largely Turks) and just grouped as people under a common government. I need some kind of map and definitions - where did Bulgars live (what region) and what differentiated them from other peoples. I'm sure a "world map" of the middle ages must exist somewhere. I think that will help me a lot for background context.

@KSGM. Given that Mohammed armies, that’s a bit doubtful.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...y_career_of_Muhammad

Indeed. Thank you.

Who were the sea people?

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Originally posted by darthfuster:
Who were the sea people?

That's the most hotly debated question among bronze age historians.

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:
The Kurds are a Christian ethnic group that exist between south eastern Turkey, Syria, and Iraq, they are currently fighting for an independent "Kurdistan."

There are a few Christian Kurds, along with Zoroastrians and even some Jews. But most are Sunni Muslims, also Alevis (a syncretic Islamic tradition closer to the Shi'a; not to be confused with the Alawites, a Shi'a branch who ruled Syria under the Assad clan until their recent downfall) and Yazidis, a distinctly Kurdish group. Saladin, who eventually took back Jerusalem from the Crusaders for Islam, was a Kurd.

As others have said, the motivations for the Crusades are convoluted and have a lot to do with societal changes in medieval Europe. I have no doubt that having the Holy Land being taken by Islam was a genuine outrage for those Christians who were in a position to care, but heavily intertwined with economic interest like the aforementioned pilgrim business and general oriental trade. There was also a population spike, including a glut of feudal offspring with the younger sons of nobles having no good perspectives on inheritance or alternate occupations to sustain thenselves. What better way out than to send them off to fight the enemies of Christendom, many of them conveniently dying in the process, and others carving out new possessions in the Levant.

Also noted, from the 13th century there were other Crusades against Christian heretics like the Cathars in Southern Europe and the Hussites in Bohemia, against non-Christian Slavs and Baltic people in Eastern Europe, and sometimes even Christian political opponents of some pope or other. Eastern Orthodoxy was also a target; the Fourth Crusade of 1202-1204 was supposed to retake Jerusalem and for good measure conquer Egypt, but since low participation threatened failure despite high advance cost, the enterprise was redirected against Christian Constantinople even though specifically forbidden by the Pope. That wrecked relations between the Western and Eastern Church, and down the road opened Asia Minor for Muslim conquest.

Then there were things like the Children's Crusade of 1212 which seems to have been more of an unarmed pilgrimage grown out of spontaneous religious processions by young people in France and Germany; maybe the purest example of a faith-driven undertaking in this context. Of course most of those kids died on the way to the Holy Land, with the balance sold into slavery by enterprising shippers.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BansheeOne,

I haven't reached the Albigensian / Children's Crusades yet. It's coming.

Other questions that are arising after the information to date: how did the papacy get created? Did it start as Christian and then convert to Catholicism? The series only mentions them as Christian - not sure if that means Catholic or if that's a conversion to come.

It does seem like there were tactical errors - crusades on too many fronts w/ too few people.

Muslims seem already fragmented in this age - sunni, shia, turks, kurds, etc. Christianity seems more cohesive in this age, except for eastern/western, orthodox / non-orthodox (the difference and nuances of which illude me - something about positions of the holy spirit).

But for Muhammed, one wonders what these ages would have been like, and what today would be like.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
Other questions that are arising after the information to date: how did the papacy get created?

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church."

quote:

Did it start as Christian and then convert to Catholicism?

Until Luther came along, many years after the Crusades, all Christians were Catholics.