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Originally posted by snoris:
Sometimes the lighting conditions you describe are all you have to work with when the shit hits the fan. You almost never get to pick where a gunfight starts.

Uh, you start firing in complete darkness without being able to identify a target and you....

1 - Potentially kill innocents
2 - Open your department and city to a huge lawsuit and national media attention.

I've been to LEO qualifying here locally and they don't do any of the complete darkness training noted above. However, what they 'do' do to qualify, is a joke. I witnessed three officers the last time fail the course of fire three times (the limit of attempts they get). Mind you, this was a course of fire my son when he was ten could have aced. Anybody who claims cops should be the only people allowed to carry guns should watch LE qualifying to see just how poorly a large number of LEO's function with firearms. And make no mistake, that's not a dig at LE, just the reality of the situation.

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Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:

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Originally posted by 12131:

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Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:

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2- This second one was even weirder: Shooting in complete darkness at 5 yards. No flashlights. WTF?

When you say "complete darkness", do you mean, as if you were inside a closet or a freezer without any illumination?

Typical indoor range. Each person in his/her lane. Targets ~5 yards away. All lights turned off (yes, complete darkness). Instructor gave command to shoot. I was just outside (behind the glass) watching.

So you were in darkness also...or was there light coming through the windows from where you were viewing?

I'm only asking because complete darkness (complete lack of light) is fairly rare at an indoor range. I seldom encountered it in the real world either...most places have windows and urban settings are seldom devoid of some light

No, the lobby is lighted normally. But, I can tell you this. Standing right there at the glass, I could see the officers, but not their targets. Maybe the officers could, but I couldn't.
Also, last week, when I was in the middle of shooting, someone accidentally leaned against the light switch inside the shooting area. It went dark, and I couldn't see anything beyond the bench.

Sounds like some department had to hurry up and do their yearly qualifications real quick.

I think Ohio is a once a year state. So you can qualify on 1/1/18 and not have to qualify again until 12/31/19.

I did one session a year (using Simunition) in darkness. Light levels varied from indoors and pitch black to ambient. Flashlight or WML was used for all stages. And patrol car with overhead lights activated was a traffic stop scenario.
You work in the dark so you should train in the dark. And this applies to everyone, not just cops.

Departments must do low light training, there are a number of court decisions that make it clear. We train officers to shoot low light (dusk or dawn), ambient light, using a handheld flashlight, and for those that have them weapon mounted light. Low light shooting is usually done as Training, not as qualification for score.

Yep. Dim light, Flashlight, and day light courses. Minimum passing score of 80 on each. The dim light would look pretty dark to someone in the lobby. Inside the range after they give you a minute to let your eyes adjust there is enough light to make out the target. It's about like what you'd see walking down a sparsely lit public street at night.

The training isn't about making out a target at night, it's about being able to hit a known hostile target in poor light. It'a actually designed to give officers experience using the sights in poor lighting conditions. There is a limited amount of light on the targets, but none on the firing lines. We have another drill we do separate from quals that involves low light target identification.

My favorite was the year they set up one of the small inside bays up as a traffic stop with dummies for targets, one of more of which would be armed with a cardboard shotgun. The only illumination was a set of flashing blues. "At the buzzer, turn, identify, and engage the hostile target..."

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There's case law in OK

Probably the most quoted case on that topic was from NJ. Popow v. City of Margate,


NJ firearm's standards require a qual and a low light qual for each firearm min twice a year.

http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/pdfs/dcj-firearms.pdf

Down side is agencies such as mine that use an outdoor range have to resort to darkened glassed to simulate the low light.

Shooting low light inside a darkened range is fine, but it does not simulate what is faced outside with similar lighting levels.

We are fortunate to have a law enforcement league through the support of Sig's academy director. Once a month we meet and shot several scenario based stages. During the later months, it gets dark around 4:30 and we have the range use until 6pm. Many of the stages are low light be necessity. when you don't have the walls and ceiling of what is most likely a white interior, the lighting reflecting is vastly different. Many found that out during these sessions.

Unfortunately, many outdoor ranges limit the latest they can shoot so this training becomes tough to do.

Our night fire includes a close range, no lights stage. It's really not meant to be shot in the total darkness, though.

We had to do a low light qualification once a year a long with one day qual. We did our quals during a 2 or three day in-service training we did twice a year.

It has changed over the years where it was pitch black except for flashlights, or early morning twilight, or a unit's light rack with its red and blues rotating behind us, and even using night simulation goggles during daylight. The goggles idea didn't last very long so we normally just came in early morning to qual in the dark, and then get a few hour "lunch" break where we could go home to sleep an hour or two before returning for more training classes.

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Originally posted by 12131:

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Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:

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Originally posted by 12131:

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Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:

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2- This second one was even weirder: Shooting in complete darkness at 5 yards. No flashlights. WTF?

When you say "complete darkness", do you mean, as if you were inside a closet or a freezer without any illumination?

Typical indoor range. Each person in his/her lane. Targets ~5 yards away. All lights turned off (yes, complete darkness). Instructor gave command to shoot. I was just outside (behind the glass) watching.

So you were in darkness also...or was there light coming through the windows from where you were viewing?

I'm only asking because complete darkness (complete lack of light) is fairly rare at an indoor range. I seldom encountered it in the real world either...most places have windows and urban settings are seldom devoid of some light

No, the lobby is lighted normally. But, I can tell you this. Standing right there at the glass, I could see the officers, but not their targets. Maybe the officers could, but I couldn't.
Also, last week, when I was in the middle of shooting, someone accidentally leaned against the light switch inside the shooting area. It went dark, and I couldn't see anything beyond the bench.

Thanks for the clarification. Complete Darkness really threw me in your OP.

Yup, we have training in ambient light and it is pretty useful. It shows you how useless night sights really are when it gets dark.

We also used to do training at out outdoor range...which was way out surrounded by farmer's fields...after dark. There is always some light,even if it is starlight

Once your eyes adjust, you can see a lot in low/ambient light.

Statistically, we fight close, and in reduced light. "Reduced light" can mean things like "indoors," too... not just "night."

We do both (flashlight & non-light) at about the same distance split, at least annually. It's not a scored qualification, but a "drill." It's pretty common.

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Originally posted by 12131:
I could understand low-light training, but no light (complete darkness) shooting? What happens to "know what you're shooting at"?

They are probably shooting back at the muzzle flashes coming at them!!

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Originally posted by 12131:
Went to the range bright and early, right when they opened, thinking I was going to be the only one there. But, darn, the whole place was crawling with cops doing their qualifications. They were going through various routines. But two of them I thought was kind of weird.

1- Shooting at 15 yards, in the dark, using your flashlight as the only source of illumination. I don't know what lumen they had in their lights, but the silhouette was not very visible in this situation.

2- This second one was even weirder: Shooting in complete darkness at 5 yards. No flashlights. WTF?

So, to the LEOs, do you guys shoot like these as part of your qualifications?

Btw, I finally gave up and left. Wasted my time making the trip.

First one, yes, second one, never (practicing shooting at a target where you cannot determine if it is a threat is a really bad practice)

Are you sure they were LEO's, there are several community college academies that hold there range sessions at commercial ranges (university of Houston, lone star before they lost their license, Alvin community college, etc)

We do both of these phases. The 5 yard complete darkness phase shows that the officer can properly align the vials on their night sights in complete darkness and actually hit something. We require 5 rounds at 5 yards into the head box.

The officer may find themselves in complete darkness, and their target properly illuminated.

Let's face it fellas, we can talk about best practice scenarios, but qualification never equals combat proficiency. It is to test skills to make sure that officers can do basic skills. It is just easier to have them use night sights only in total darkness to test this, as opposed to setting up an elaborate phase where the target is lit and the officer is in total darkness. And being able to align night sights in total darkness is an important skill to have.

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Originally posted by car541:
Are you sure they were LEO's, there are several community college academies that hold there range sessions at commercial ranges (university of Houston, lone star before they lost their license, Alvin community college, etc)

Harris County Constables, yeah, they were.

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Originally posted by jljones:
We do both of these phases. The 5 yard complete darkness phase shows that the officer can properly align the vials on their night sights in complete darkness and actually hit something. We require 5 rounds at 5 yards into the head box.

The officer may find themselves in complete darkness, and their target properly illuminated.

I’ve played with something similar on the ranch range, but farther out as I’m shooting steel. I’ll be at 10 - 15 yards straight in front of the target with the pickup a little in front of me, but well off to the side angled so the headlights are illuminating the targets. It is hard to see much more than the night sights until the shot goes off and the muzzleflash backlights the sights. Definitely a different experience.

And Qualification was not just about marksmanship and shooting skill. It gave me an opportunity to make sure all the guns were in good shape, functioning properly and had fresh ammo. It also gave me time to witness gun handling skills and whether safe admin handling was in place. Watching some of the troops handle their guns was scary!

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Originally posted by RogueJSK:
We don't do low-light qualifications. Annual qualifications are the state-mandated course of fire in daylight.

But we do low-light training "night shoots" with various scenarios.

Same as Rogue in my state/department.

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Originally posted by 12131:
Went to the range bright and early, right when they opened, thinking I was going to be the only one there. But, darn, the whole place was crawling with cops doing their qualifications. They were going through various routines. But two of them I thought was kind of weird.

1- Shooting at 15 yards, in the dark, using your flashlight as the only source of illumination. I don't know what lumen they had in their lights, but the silhouette was not very visible in this situation.

2- This second one was even weirder: Shooting in complete darkness at 5 yards. No flashlights. WTF?

So, to the LEOs, do you guys shoot like these as part of your qualifications?

Btw, I finally gave up and left. Wasted my time making the trip.

Hi Q:

1. Oftentimes, officers have to privately purchase their own lights. They routinely go with the least expensive they can find, so the quality and lumen-output tend to be iffy at best. Oftentimes, the lights just have no "horsepower." Agencies, at least in my state, follow the same policy. Lowest bidder. Lights are often of very poor quality. In Arkansas, there are still rural sheriff's departments who pay their deputies $9/hour. It's criminal, but there are those who still heed the call, and $9/hour buys only the cheapest gear. Not an excuse, but the reality of it.

On low-light qualifications, we also have officers shoot at various distances (3-25 yards) with blue lights, without blue lights, with WMLs, without WMLs, with handheld flashlights, without handheld flashlights, and in near total darkness simply because this is the nature of working every single shift in a low light environment. We incorporate reloads at specific times, particularly during the string of fire when the officers are using a hand-held flashlights.

2. Worst case scenario...simulating an ambush attack out of the blue before WMLs or support-side flashlights can be acquired. It also demonstrates that lights break, and batteries go dead, but you still have to be able to fight in such an environment...so its an exposure and stress inoculation to the worst case. Another basic concept of this is to familiarize and acclimatize an officer to extreme low light conditions and to also see what their sights look like or don't look like in as many lighting conditions as possible (advantage: tritium sights).

In 1999, during a third-shift traffic stop on an unlit stretch of road, I once had all 3 of my lights go down. My bar-light take-downs went out because of a blown fuse; my D-cell Maglight had been used extensively by the previous shift (we rotated cars; no take-home vehicles) and the Maglight had not had time to recharge; and my Surefire 6Z Combatlight went down because the lithium batteries bit the dust. I had to finish that traffic stop in near total darkness with only headlights, which did nothing but illuminate the trunk and cast large shadows of darkness. You just never know, so we try to expose them to every possible contingency and lighting condition that we can...

I hope you find this helpful. Have a great holiday!

MT Hwy Patrol....at least up to 2008.

We did all of our Quals outside, generally using our cars as the start point, as in a traffic stop. Most scenarios involved a switch to Patrol Rifle or Shotgun at some point. Some were totally shotgun or rifle.

We did four Quals a year. A day, two night quals and the 4th was an extended Range Day with any issues that Trooper may have had as the focus , with a few hundred rds fired. Also any new techniques would be worked on as well.

We occasionally did night shoots with the car WELL off to the side, with all lights running. But the targets only lit by out top lights. As if you had the situation well away from the car with only the toplights illuminating the situation. Also used a flashlight for SOME of this. Simulating losing your light, or batteries dead.

We were fortunate we did some good Firearms training. Especially compared to many other Departments.