Went to the range bright and early, right when they opened, thinking I was going to be the only one there. But, darn, the whole place was crawling with cops doing their qualifications. They were going through various routines. But two of them I thought was kind of weird.

1- Shooting at 15 yards, in the dark, using your flashlight as the only source of illumination. I don't know what lumen they had in their lights, but the silhouette was not very visible in this situation.

2- This second one was even weirder: Shooting in complete darkness at 5 yards. No flashlights. WTF?

So, to the LEOs, do you guys shoot like these as part of your qualifications?

Btw, I finally gave up and left. Wasted my time making the trip.

Sometimes the lighting conditions you describe are all you have to work with when the shit hits the fan. You almost never get to pick where a gunfight starts.

We do a low light like number 1. We have been asked to shoot without lights just so the instructors can remind us about our muzzle flash.

But in recent years the ammo we are issued has significantly decreased the muzzle flash.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:


So, to the LEOs, do you guys shoot like these as part of your qualifications?

Of course, it’s different depending on state and even local regulations. In my state we do shoot with a variety of headlights/blue lights/flashlights for qualifying. We don’t, however, shoot in total darkness though.

Like snoris said you don’t get to pick where you have your gunfight. I can’t remember the numbers but historically most police involved shootings occur at night. We do the same type drills. I don’t know what light they carry, most of our officers use a hand held stinger. I recently bought a surefire for my pistol and it makes a difference in speed and accuracy. Right now the city won’t spend the money to supply them.

Sounds like low light quals or training. We do similar stuff.

I just sent you an e-mail with the lowlight training scenario used, at least one of them, by my local sheriff’s department.

BB61

We don't do low-light qualifications. Annual qualifications are the state-mandated course of fire in daylight.

But we do low-light training "night shoots" with various scenarios.

I could understand low-light training, but no light (complete darkness) shooting? What happens to "know what you're shooting at"?

quote:

Originally posted by BB61:
I just sent you an e-mail with the lowlight training scenario used, at least one of them, by my local sheriff’s department.

BB61

Got it. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:

...2- This second one was even weirder: Shooting in complete darkness at 5 yards. No flashlights. WTF?...

Maybe that was to teach them what muzzle flash will be, not necessarily a qualification requirement.

I retired as a reserve LEO last year, we did annual night shoots like the one you described in para 1, though it was closer than 15 yds (five? seven?). I never shot in total darkness. We had to qualify with the handgun twice a year (day and night conditions), 870 and AR once a year.

We used to qualify one day and one night a year for the state quals.

3yds
5yds
10yds
15yds
25yds

for a total of 50 rounds

differing round numbers at the listed yardage
then at night we shot at

3yds no lights, double taps - three times
5 flashlight only,
7 bluelights
10 bluelights & dim headlights on the cars at 35yds behind the line
15 bluelights, highbeams and all exterior lights on the lightbar

total rounds was 50

you could use the big streamlight flashlight or a little flashlight-they didn't care just some kinda light to illuminate the target-it didn't have to be crisp and clear-just enough to identify a threat

off duty gun was the same
and patrol rifle was the same-I never used my light as I had a tritium insert on my front sight and I could see it very well

the firearms instructors always waited for 30 mins after legal sunset before we even began

There's case law in OK which requires low light training. We run a basic qual at night from 25 yards and in. At 1,3 and 5 yards, no light is allowed. You'd be surprised what your eyes can do if you let them.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
1- Shooting at 15 yards, in the dark, using your flashlight as the only source of illumination. I don't know what lumen they had in their lights, but the silhouette was not very visible in this situation.

Not weird at all. That is fairly representative of what you'll see on the streets at night

quote:

2- This second one was even weirder: Shooting in complete darkness at 5 yards. No flashlights. WTF?

When you say "complete darkness", do you mean, as if you were inside a closet or a freezer without any illumination?

quote:

So, to the LEOs, do you guys shoot like these as part of your qualifications?

I've shot the first scenario many times over the years.

If you only mean without an additional light source for the second. That was fairly common also...especially before the advent of nightsights...it was after sunset and they'd turn off the range lights before the command to fire

quote:

Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:

quote:

2- This second one was even weirder: Shooting in complete darkness at 5 yards. No flashlights. WTF?

When you say "complete darkness", do you mean, as if you were inside a closet or a freezer without any illumination?

Typical indoor range. Each person in his/her lane. Targets ~5 yards away. All lights turned off (yes, complete darkness). Instructor gave command to shoot. I was just outside (behind the glass) watching.

Sounds like realistic training to me. In fact, if possible (i.e., can be done safely), we all should.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
I could understand low-light training, but no light (complete darkness) shooting? What happens to "know what you're shooting at"?

This is where verbal commands and responses become very important!
Been in this very spot.
It is not a fun place to be. Pitch black, verbal commands, and my hearing seemed to be super human in the heat of it.
Fortunately verbal commands were some what responded to until I could get my light.
If they weren’t and she advanced before I could get my light it would have been a complete darkness shooting.

Yes, both pretty normal.
We do #1 and other variations outdoor (e.g. w/emergency equip activated to add light/distraction).

As far as #2, we'll do a string(s) with just moonlight & no lights.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:

quote:

Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:

quote:

2- This second one was even weirder: Shooting in complete darkness at 5 yards. No flashlights. WTF?

When you say "complete darkness", do you mean, as if you were inside a closet or a freezer without any illumination?

Typical indoor range. Each person in his/her lane. Targets ~5 yards away. All lights turned off (yes, complete darkness). Instructor gave command to shoot. I was just outside (behind the glass) watching.

So you were in darkness also...or was there light coming through the windows from where you were viewing?

I'm only asking because complete darkness (complete lack of light) is fairly rare at an indoor range. I seldom encountered it in the real world either...most places have windows and urban settings are seldom devoid of some light

quote:

Originally posted by snoris:
Sometimes the lighting conditions you describe are all you have to work with when the shit hits the fan. You almost never get to pick where a gunfight starts.

This ^^ We teach low light, flashlight and no (ambient) light

Train for it because when the SHTF you revert to your training.