quote:

Originally posted by petr:
The 996 has the dreaded IMS issue.

As does the early 997; however, don’t disregard them. The 996, in particular, is a relative bargain for a high performance car. The 996 has the much maligned “fried egg” headlights/turn indicator, but critics, if not warming to the design, are realizing that they present a unique opportunity to own a Porsche. As to the IMS bearing, you will find that many (both 996 and early 997) have already had the bearing replaced with a much-improved design, in many cases before failure on a preventative basis. Improvement of the bearing in later 997s also led to increased difficulty—-and expense, in replacing the bearing. Fortunately, the bearing is much more reliable. As Porsches go, replacement of the IMS bearing in the 996s and early 997s is “relatively” inexpensive. All that to say, if a Porsche continues to intrigue you, don’t discount a 911, just look for one that has the bearing already replaced. The 996 will probably never be a collector car, and you should pay accordingly.

quote:

Originally posted by JeffSig2022:
I know nothing about cars so I thought I would ask here.

I've owned multiple 911, Cayman, and Boxsters. Porsches are not any more expensive than any other roadster IF.YOU.DO.YOUR.OWN.WORK. The statement I quoted probably means you don't want a Porsche because if you don't do your own work repairs get very pricey very fast. I do all my own work but at 60 years old means I can't do it much longer. 70% of repairs involves working form underneath the car and I just get way too sore crawling around on cement for an entire day. The upside of a Porsche is that they are very easy to drive fast. Much easier than an S2000 or Miata IMHO (I've owned all three). I'm much faster in my current Boxster S than I am in a S2000 or Miata. Proven on multiple track days. Maybe it's just me but low RPM and high torque are a good combination. YMMV.

If you do want a Porsche I've found the best place to buy them is a used car lot (I know, unbelievable). Typically the owners of a Porsche are so emotionally involved with their car that they just can't price them fairly. That whole thing of "the wife and I have had sooooo many great times in this car...". Find a good mechanic that specializes in Porsche and have it checked out no matter where you buy it!

One of the few SF threads that is likely to cause the reader to save rather than spend money! Thanks, ex-Porsche owners!

Anyone who takes an out of warranty car to a dealer for service gets what they deserve. I drove my 993 like I stole it for 12 years and never had a single mechanical issue. I have literally spent more maintaining my Breitling ChronoAvenger than I did my 993, though I DIY'ed everything on the 993. That car was the most reliable of anything I have ever owned. Buy a no-stories, well-maintained Porsche, take care of it and it will last forever.

2018 PORSCHE CAYMAN
1,148 miles (ACTUAL)
Available...
https://www.copart.com/lot/46850508/Photos

If I were you I would stay far away from german cars.

I looked into it once. It's tempting, but there is a reason they are so cheap. The cost to repair and maintain is astronomical. Not only that, but they do not stay repaired. It's almost cheaper to buy an almost new one and dump it when maintenance bills get too high.

My dad has a Mercedes that he has dumped twice it's value in repairs over the past two years. Had a fuel line leak a while back. Price to repair was 800.00 dollars. The part alone was 500.00 from the dealer......dealer only part. I refused to let him pay that so I removed the old part and took it to EVCO. They reproduced it for 11.00 plus tax. Installed it myself for the cost of home cooked lunch and a Dr. Pepper.

If you are resourceful and mechanically competent, you can capitalize on these older semi exotics. But if you are not or -in my case- do not want to be, the deal up front is not worth the cost on the back end. JMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by TMats:

quote:

Originally posted by petr:
The 996 has the dreaded IMS issue.

As does the early 997; however, don’t disregard them. The 996, in particular, is a relative bargain for a high performance car. The 996 has the much maligned “fried egg” headlights/turn indicator, but critics, if not warming to the design, are realizing that they present a unique opportunity to own a Porsche. As to the IMS bearing, you will find that many (both 996 and early 997) have already had the bearing replaced with a much-improved design, in many cases before failure on a preventative basis. Improvement of the bearing in later 997s also led to increased difficulty—-and expense, in replacing the bearing. Fortunately, the bearing is much more reliable. As Porsches go, replacement of the IMS bearing in the 996s and early 997s is “relatively” inexpensive. All that to say, if a Porsche continues to intrigue you, don’t discount a 911, just look for one that has the bearing already replaced. The 996 will probably never be a collector car, and you should pay accordingly.

For that matter, so does the 986 Boxsters suffer from the same IMS bearing catastrophic failure issue. The 987 Boxsters and Caymans (introduced in 2005 and 2006) appear to be far less susceptible to the issue because of a new bearing design Porsche implemented with that generation.

Best guess is that IMS bearing failure affects approximately 10-12% of all cars in that time frame. For 911s it's primarily any non-turbo, non-GT3 996, and the same for 997.1 cars, all of which use the baseline M96/M97 engine. 997.2 cars (MY2009 and later) use a significantly different engine design (MA1; fewer parts, no IMS bearing), but they're also valued higher as a result (not just because they're newer). For Boxsters it's primarily within the first generation 986 series cars, though there have been rare reports of the much more stout and larger IMS bearing failing on 987 generation cars, but those to date are INDEED rare occurrences.

All this having been said, there are still a lot of 996 and 997.1 engines that have NOT been updated to a more robust IMS bearing, usually meaning an aftermarket unit or later factory part. Frankly at this point of time and usage, most of these don't need to be updated, because if the IMS failure hasn't shown up by now, it likely will never show up at all. The only caveat to this is if you're considering a low mileage car. A 996 or Boxster from this era that has little use (very low miles) may very well have the IMS bearing failure waiting in the wings, simply because the car hasn't been used enough to vet out the engine. If indeed you are indeed considering a Boxster from this generation, you do NEED to have a proper pre-purchase inspection done by an experienced, knowledgeable and qualified Porsche specialist, whether dealer or independent shop. They will look for any telltale signs of pending doom, like rear main seal (RMS) leakage, which sometimes is a precursor to bad things coming along with the IMS or an uncentered crankshaft, the later meaning that the engine is toast.

In general the 986-era Boxsters ARE relatively cheap (i.e., low in price). Same can be said of the early 987 Boxsters. Early 987 Caymans aren't far behind when it comes to the realities of depreciation. Even well-maintained, pristine cars are not that highly valued. Why? Even though they're great driver's cars and are sports cars in the truest sense, they do wind up representing the low end of the Porsche totem pole, and Porsche DID make and sell a lot of them, relatively speaking. But as others have alluded to, even if they are relatively inexpensive to buy, they are NOT inexpensive to keep on the road.

Three figures for an oil change is not uncommon at a Porsche specialist, though pales when compared to the price of an air-cooled Porsche oil change (about double, mostly because of the amount of oil an air-cooled car needs). Aside from the IMS bearing issue, water-cooled Porsche engines are typically robust and hold up well though oil leaks are still a common thing (an unfortunate holdover from the air-cooled days). Electrical gremlins may start showing up in early cars (1990s), since those are now 20+ years old by now and time, heat and use will inevitably do their nastiest to plastics, resins, gaskets and wire.

Special consideration: 1998-9 Boxsters. Watch out for these, especially ones with low miles, because Porsche did a very moronic thing during this time when they chose to use some engine blocks that suffered from excessive porosity with the base material. Instead of rejecting the blocks they decided to use cylinder insert sleeves because Boxster demand at the time was at a fever pitch and the company was hard pressed to keep up. Despite this batch of engine blocks not meeting spec, Porsche's production management apparently decided that they couldn't stop production to wait for in-spec engine blocks to be cast and readied, so they rubber-stamped the sleeve "solution", only to find out later on that it's a very effective way to create conditions that result in the engine blowing itself up. Again one must be cautious with low mileage cars from this time window.

As with most cars built during this age, watch out for cracks in plastic fluid reservoirs, aged hoses, worn seals, etc. Various gaskets both inside and out are at that age that cracks and general deterioration are more commonly found. Check for proper switchgear operation around the cabin; Porsche switches do break over time and while they're usually not that much more than what most anyone else charges, it IS a PITA to hand over a lot of money to parts houses for these sorts of niggling problems. Check carefully for any cracked bits in the interior as well. Look to see if the plastic rear window in the Boxster's top has been replaced, and for the condition of the top in general. Nothing more annoying than looking through a sun-yellowed window.

Original Porsche parts are expensive, but factory parts in general can be pricey, regardless of manufacturer and/or the country of origin. Labor rates are about average. However the amount of TIME to work on the drivetrain of Boxsters and 911s is not average when compared to your typical front engine car. You learn quickly to hate the phrase, "Um, we have to drop the engine". You learn to console yourself with the thought, "At least it's cheaper than with a Ferrari, McLaren or Lamborghini". Or if you're young and headstrong enough, you learn to do much of it yourself.

Are there cheaper alternatives? Well, yeah. Are there better choices? That depends on how you define 'better'. I've never cared much for the looks of the 986, especially when it's compared to the original show car concept that spawned the model. Porsche 'cheaped out' when it came to the 986; they sized it to take advantage parts and systems sharing between it and the 996 that was to follow it in a year or so. But they ARE enjoyable cars to drive, and aren't all that expensive to buy these days. But you MUST do your homework and be willing to pass on what may look to be good cars. Porsches are not tender on your wallet over the long haul, so you must decide if it's really worth it to you. I like 'em. I enjoy driving 'em. So I've owned 'em, though there ARE times I do get tired of their 'money pit' habits. But as long as I'm able to drive I will always have at least one.

HJere in yUK back in 2014 I bought a low-mileage 2.7 litre Boxster with a full Porsche service history - nine stamps, one only four months previously, was a confidence-builder, right?

Wrong.

Less that six months later, an annual fitness inspection revealed an incipient oil leak from the gearbox/crankcase joint - the dreaded IMS bearing fail had reared its head, luckily before it actully let go while I was in the outside lane at 90mph.....

Are you reading so far?

New IMS bearing from the US - £900 + fitting. Say $1500.

Ah, if only that was just it.

New clutch.

New oil pump.

New camshaft buckets.

All the NEW nusts and bolts and $70 a time head gaskets. Why? Because, friends, the RH head had been oil-starved to the point that it was scored. Boxster heads have half the camshaft bearing machined into the head, and that means that the whole head had to be replaced. Luckily for me, I found one in a front-end wreck for 'only' $1000, but the total bill came to almost $8000.

Had I gone to a Porsche dealership, instead of a POCGB-recommended specialist, then the car would have been scrapped for spares - no kidding.

And that was for the cheapest model Porsche on the block.

Air-cooled Porsches, particularly the end-of-production cars, are now becoming the province of the seriously well-off. The son of one of my train pals deals in Porsches of the late 80's - early 90's, and recently bought four late 80's 911-somethings.

For just under a half a million dollars.

Wow, some really good info on all these posts. Instead of repeating it, I will just give you my 2 cents. I am on my second 911. The first was a 1983 911SC. I bought it used, kept it for two years and then sold it. The only thing I ever had to do to it was change the oil. Man seeing the value of these now I wish I still had it. My current Porsche 911 is a later 997.2S. It gets garaged when the temps are below 45 due to the type of tires I have on it (whole other story) plus I never take it out in less than nice weather. I just got all the parts and pieces in for its 60k service. During this service I will be flushing the brake fluid, changing out coils and spark plugs, changing air and cabin filters, changing oil/filter, changing PDK fluid and checking other things out. All the parts and pieces cost me around $300. To have the service done by a dealer or Indy would cost around $3200 - $4500.

The cars are a blast to drive, fairly easy to work on but require a lot of preventative maintenance. So if you do not have $$$ to get servicing done or like to work on cars, I would probably not get a used Porsche.

Interesting Porsche fact. In 1963 the 911 was originally called a 901. Saab had a 901 car and sued Porsche to change the name of their car. Porsche rolled over and changed the name of their car from the 901 to the 911.

quote:

Originally posted by Censored:
Interesting Porsche fact. In 1963 the 911 was originally called a 901. Saab had a 901 car and sued Porsche to change the name of their car. Porsche rolled over and changed the name of their car from the 901 to the 911.

The way I heard the story, the French, specifically Peugeot, sued. They claimed that they owned the right to a car numbering system with a “zero” in the middle, e.g. Peugeot 404.

quote:

The Peugeot system of using three digit names with a central 0 was introduced in 1929. The first digit has always signified the car's size and the final digit has indicated the generation of vehicle. It was supplemented with the introduction of the 'double zero' models, such as the 3008 and 5008, since 2005, plus the introduction of body style indicators such as 'CC' and 'SW'.

Link

quote:

Originally posted by TMats:

quote:

Originally posted by Censored:
Interesting Porsche fact. In 1963 the 911 was originally called a 901. Saab had a 901 car and sued Porsche to change the name of their car. Porsche rolled over and changed the name of their car from the 901 to the 911.

The way I heard the story, the French, specifically Peugeot, sued. They claimed that they owned the right to a car numbering system with a “zero” in the middle, e.g. Peugeot 404.

quote:

The Peugeot system of using three digit names with a central 0 was introduced in 1929. The first digit has always signified the car's size and the final digit has indicated the generation of vehicle. It was supplemented with the introduction of the 'double zero' models, such as the 3008 and 5008, since 2005, plus the introduction of body style indicators such as 'CC' and 'SW'.

Link

Dang German must have lied to me then or I was jet lagging when I heard it. Thanks for the correction.

You can also check out Rennlist.com for a lot of good info. It is to Porsche cars what Sigforum is to guns.

I've owned vintage Porsches for 25 years. (356 and 911). Check out the Pelikan Parts technical forums. Excellent for DIY owners.

https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-forums/

Subaru BRZ is as close to the Boxter as you can get and still have Japanese reliability.

Bruce

This thread is timely as I hope to have a gently used 911 in my late 50s (ten years away). I too hope to wrench on most items. I know about Pelican Parts in Los Angeles and even stopped by a shop in Torrance that is certified to perform the IMS repair.

I think a lot of the Porsche maintenance can be done by a competent DIY mechanic. I don't understand why anyone would pay hundreds of dollars for a common oil change.

As a person who grew up in the backseat of 356s, to an owner of an ‘04 996 TT X50 Cab w/ mods ... all I can say is “booooo” to all the Stuttgart haters in here. 550 hp of pure trailing throttle oversteer.

FWIW: 996 twin turbos were very pricey when new. Now, you can get ones for less than 25% of new. Bargains!

quote:

Originally posted by smlsig:

On the other end of the spectrum is a Cup car (not street legal) ...running cost is about $1-2000 per hour...

SMLSIG - I'm curious to know what is included in the above costs. Because it is a race car, I assume a lot of that cost is tires and fuel.