quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
I think they open carry now as push back. I'd be willing to bet that if gov't did not tresspass the 2a and if the gun grabbers were complete failures, most of these guys would conceal carry if at all. I'm glad to see push back. Things would have to get much worse before I'd push back, but these guys make good canaries so more power to them. For the record, I think open carry in this culture is unwise.

So far, open carry has benefitted mostly the sign makers.

I don’t go out much anymore, but I don’t hear reports of open carriers seen. Some, of course, aren’t seen, unnoticed.

I do see plain clothes LEOs, in stores, restaurants, usually in casual but dignified dress. Badges are displayed, but not prominently sometimes. Nobody even blinks.

There is a cerain level of “you can’t make me!” in the DNA around here.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:
I've been following this series of train wrecks.

The short story is a local police chief hates OCT and all it stands for, and took another opportunity to arrest the OCT members for doing nothing illegal. It's a "respect muh atority" thing with the chief and his officers.

He then stands behind the wall of qualified immunity and suffers zero repercussions.

I'm thinking the sudden repeal of the local ordinance may herald a new day where the chief personally pays for the settlements.

People accuse OCT of being provocateurs, but they are fighting the anti-gun agenda head on and at great personal risk.

Just for curiosity’s sake, what actual documented proof do you have of all of this?

quote:

Originally posted by Keystoner:
I'm a bit torn on where to "fight" (disobey) what you think is an unlawful police order. I tend to think a courtroom is the correct place. Watch the videos of the incident. Grisham clearly disobeyed police orders, whether they were lawful or not. The consequences were getting tazed and getting a pretty serious gash on his head and concussion. If it turns out to be unlawful, the consequences may be a nice payout and a place he all legal Texans, can openly carry in Olmos Park and the rest of Texas going forward.

Sometimes, *civil disobedience* is required to get a case to court in order to serve Truth, Justice and the American Way.

I'd bet a week's lunch money that many or most of our Founding Fathers were douche bag provocateurs.

This story sounds similar to how Redmond, WA learned to tolerate open carry.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:

quote:

Originally posted by Keystoner:
I'm a bit torn on where to "fight" (disobey) what you think is an unlawful police order. I tend to think a courtroom is the correct place. Watch the videos of the incident. Grisham clearly disobeyed police orders, whether they were lawful or not. The consequences were getting tazed and getting a pretty serious gash on his head and concussion. If it turns out to be unlawful, the consequences may be a nice payout and a place he all legal Texans, can openly carry in Olmos Park and the rest of Texas going forward.

Sometimes, *civil disobedience* is required to get a case to court in order to serve Truth, Justice and the American Way.

I'd bet a week's lunch money that many or most of our Founding Fathers were douche bag provocateurs.

Sam Adams and his crew, for certain !!

Well, Benjamin Franklin was no douchebag, but he was unquestionably a provocateur fifteen ways from Sunday and whenever it seemed diplomatically expedient.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

3) Texas’ state Firearms preemption law is not all encompassing. Texas municipalities CAN legally prohibit the carry of long guns in public and the open carry of handguns by persons who do not hold an LTC. The city of Olmos Park modified their local ordinance to comply with the 2015 changes in state law allowing open carry of handguns by LTC holders.

Let’s hear more about this.

My understanding is that open carry of handguns is still prohibited unless you have a LTC by state law.

It looks like Olmos Park repealed its ordinance, but that is a news report.

Is there a citation to the statute about municipalities prohibiting long guns?

So far, I found PC 1.08 and LGC §229.001(b), which in pertinent part does not restrict a local government from:

....

(6) regulat[ing] the carrying of a firearm or air gun by a person other than a person licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, at a:
(A) public park;
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or other governmental body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or professional athletic event;

Maybe this is what the COP is hanging his hat on.

Olmos Park repealed their prior ordinance and replaced it with a new ordinance which comports with the State LTC law allowing the open carry of handguns by LTC holders.

The current ordinance makes carry of loaded rifles and shotguns a misdemeanor.

Sec. 24-85. - Unauthorized carrying of loaded rifle or shotgun.
It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a duly authorized peace officer, to carry a loaded rifle or loaded shotgun on any public street within the city. A rifle or shotgun shall be considered loaded if it contains a shell or shells in either barrel or magazine.

https://library.municode.com/t...CH24OFMIPR_ARTIVFIAI

quote:

Originally posted by HCM:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

3) Texas’ state Firearms preemption law is not all encompassing. Texas municipalities CAN legally prohibit the carry of long guns in public and the open carry of handguns by persons who do not hold an LTC. The city of Olmos Park modified their local ordinance to comply with the 2015 changes in state law allowing open carry of handguns by LTC holders.

Let’s hear more about this.

My understanding is that open carry of handguns is still prohibited unless you have a LTC by state law.

It looks like Olmos Park repealed its ordinance, but that is a news report.

Is there a citation to the statute about municipalities prohibiting long guns?

So far, I found PC 1.08 and LGC §229.001(b), which in pertinent part does not restrict a local government from:

....

(6) regulat[ing] the carrying of a firearm or air gun by a person other than a person licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, at a:
(A) public park;
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or other governmental body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or professional athletic event;

Maybe this is what the COP is hanging his hat on.

Olmos Park repealed their prior ordinance and replaced it with a new ordinance which comports with the State LTC law allowing the open carry of handguns by LTC holders.

The current ordinance makes carry of loaded rifles and shotguns a misdemeanor.

Sec. 24-85. - Unauthorized carrying of loaded rifle or shotgun.
It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a duly authorized peace officer, to carry a loaded rifle or loaded shotgun on any public street within the city. A rifle or shotgun shall be considered loaded if it contains a shell or shells in either barrel or magazine.

https://library.municode.com/t...CH24OFMIPR_ARTIVFIAI

The new ordinance seems to be inconsistent with the state statute, which says the local government cannot limit open carry by LTC holders, while the ordinance prohibts long gun and shotgun open carry except by peace officers. Am I missing something?

I also took what I have read to mean that the Olmos Park ordinance bans more open carry than state laws allows a municipality to ban.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Chief in Olmos Park is very aggressively policing on this topic. Also, he seems to be forced to enforce a city ordinance that is contrary to state law.

I also wouldn't be surprised to learn that the open carry group walks right up to the edge of the line, and is trying to be provocative. They may even be violating the city ordinance to point out that it is contrary to state law.

That is a recipe for confrontation, and just who stayed on the right side of the law will take some careful review of the facts.

I'm torn on these open carry protests/demonstrations/exercises/what-have-you. On the one hand: If it's legal to do, no matter how or why ill-advised, law enforcement needs to leave 'em alone. OTOH: I think it ill-advised, for any number of reasons, and can understand why some take exception to it.

So I tend to just sit these things out.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by HCM:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

3) Texas’ state Firearms preemption law is not all encompassing. Texas municipalities CAN legally prohibit the carry of long guns in public and the open carry of handguns by persons who do not hold an LTC. The city of Olmos Park modified their local ordinance to comply with the 2015 changes in state law allowing open carry of handguns by LTC holders.

Let’s hear more about this.

My understanding is that open carry of handguns is still prohibited unless you have a LTC by state law.

It looks like Olmos Park repealed its ordinance, but that is a news report.

Is there a citation to the statute about municipalities prohibiting long guns?

So far, I found PC 1.08 and LGC §229.001(b), which in pertinent part does not restrict a local government from:

....

(6) regulat[ing] the carrying of a firearm or air gun by a person other than a person licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, at a:
(A) public park;
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or other governmental body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or professional athletic event;

Maybe this is what the COP is hanging his hat on.

Olmos Park repealed their prior ordinance and replaced it with a new ordinance which comports with the State LTC law allowing the open carry of handguns by LTC holders.

The current ordinance makes carry of loaded rifles and shotguns a misdemeanor.

Sec. 24-85. - Unauthorized carrying of loaded rifle or shotgun.
It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a duly authorized peace officer, to carry a loaded rifle or loaded shotgun on any public street within the city. A rifle or shotgun shall be considered loaded if it contains a shell or shells in either barrel or magazine.

https://library.municode.com/t...CH24OFMIPR_ARTIVFIAI

The new ordinance seems to be inconsistent with the state statute, which says the local government cannot limit open carry by LTC holders, while the ordinance prohibts long gun and shotgun open carry except by peace officers. Am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing something big - the fact that a Texas LTC is, specifically, a “License to carry a Handgun” I.e. it only applies to handguns, not rifles and shotguns.

A “Handgun” is defined in section 46.01 (5) of the Texas Penal Code: (5) "Handgun" means any firearm that is designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one hand.“

There seems to be a general misconception in TX that an LTC is some sort of a blanket “open carry license” allowing the open carry of any sort of fiream. That is not the case.


A municipality cannot prohibit an LTC holder from open (or concealed) carrying a handgun within city limits under current law. That doesn’t mean they can’t restrict the carry of other types of fireams.


Traditionally, many municipalities in Texas have prohibited the open carry of all firearms in town / city limits in conjunction with state laws prohibiting concealed carry. Many of these ordinances had to be modified to comply with the the recent LTC law regarding licensed open carry of handguns.

The open carry of long guns is not regulated by state law, HOWEVER state law, including 299.001 the Texas Government Code (Firearms Preemption) also does NOT address municipalities restricting the open carry of long guns. It only exempts the carry of handguns by LTC holders. This is implied by the statute and an LTC only licensed carry of handguns. Given past precedent and the absence of specific state preemption, TX municipalities CAN restrict the open carry of other types of firearms such as long guns.

The current Olmos Park ordinace, as revised to comport with the current state LTC law on the carry of handguns, and barring only the open carry of rifles and shotguns is legitimate and does not conflict with state law.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
I also took what I have read to mean that the Olmos Park ordinance bans more open carry than state laws allows a municipality to ban.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Chief in Olmos Park is very aggressively policing on this topic. Also, he seems to be forced to enforce a city ordinance that is contrary to state law.

I also wouldn't be surprised to learn that the open carry group walks right up to the edge of the line, and is trying to be provocative. They may even be violating the city ordinance to point out that it is contrary to state law.

That is a recipe for confrontation, and just who stayed on the right side of the law will take some careful review of the facts.

Please don’t take this personally but many in this thread are making judgements based on misconceptions.

A few facts:

A TX LTC is a license to carry a Handgun, open or concealed. An LTC is not a license to carry long guns or other weapons, I.e. LTCs do not apply to long guns.

Even if LTC’s were an issue here, it’s a moot point as Grisham is statutorily inelidgible for an LTC due to his criminal history. Grisham can still legally own guns, but Texas LTC standards are much stricter than federal or TX state Prohibited person standards.

Texas State law does not prohibit open carry of long guns. However, Texas state law, including Texas’ Firearms preemption statute does not address the open carry of long guns. There is nothing in Texas state law barring municipalities from restricting the open carry of long guns. The current Olmos Park ordinance prohibiting the open carry of rifles and shotguns is legal and valid.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
I think they open carry now as push back. I'd be willing to bet that if gov't did not tresspass the 2a and if the gun grabbers were complete failures, most of these guys would conceal carry if at all. I'm glad to see push back. Things would have to get much worse before I'd push back, but these guys make good canaries so more power to them. For the record, I think open carry in this culture is unwise.

So far, open carry has benefitted mostly the sign makers.

I don’t go out much anymore, but I don’t hear reports of open carriers seen. Some, of course, aren’t seen, unnoticed.

I do see plain clothes LEOs, in stores, restaurants, usually in casual but dignified dress. Badges are displayed, but not prominently sometimes. Nobody even blinks.

There is a cerain level of “you can’t make me!” in the DNA around here.

You’re right about the sign makers. I see plenty of 30-07 (open carry prohibited) signs but few 30-06, even in San Antonio and Austin.

Re: LE doing what I call “Walker Texas Ranger Carry” there are two factors 1) Most of these gentlemen carry themselves as Cops and people notice the demeanor before the guns and 2) how ungodly hot it gets here a fair piece of the year. The latter being the only good argument I’ve ever heard for open carry.

I watched a couple Open Carry Texas videos and they are going about it the wrong way. Just violate the ordinance, get arrested, and go to court. All the I know my rights, unloaded gun no better than a rock, law is unconstitutiol, I want my lawyer complete with getting said lawyer on cellphone speaker phone, theatrics, and general asshatery is not doing anyone any good. Neither is posting videos with titles call the Olmos police corrupt and tyrants or calling yourself TXSheepDog.

Thanks, HCM, I didn't realize that municipalities could regulate open carry of long guns.

Olmos Park is an interesting place.

It is “landlocked” within San Antonio. Total area is .61 square miles, not quite 400 acres. Population is about 2300. There are 4 public parks, the largest of which is half an acre.

There are 28 cities in Bexar County, all or part. Two are listed as towns, a distinction I am not familiar with. How many in Bexar County have similar ordinances?

There are 34 cities all or part in Harris County, part of Houston which is about 5 counties now, I think, about that same number in Dallas County.

If each municipality has its own peculiar ordinances, like what occurred with cell phones use, it can get mighty awkward.

Do counties have regulatory authority in Texas? There is no building department or inspectors, I know.

quote:

Originally posted by HCM:
The current Olmos Park ordinance prohibiting the open carry of rifles and shotguns is legal and valid.

Sorry to keep beating this...

What did Olmos Park repeal last week if they're still prohibiting open carry of long guns?

Aren't they prohibiting the open carry of loaded long guns?

If that is true, does law enforcement have the right to stop and check if one's openly-carried long gun is loaded?

I don't know if it was Grisham, but I've seen many YouTube videos where a person emphasizes that the LTC allows concealed carry, and that without a LTC, a person would only be allowed to open carry (constitutional carry). Is that a false claim, at least in Texas, based on what you've written that you're only allowed to open carry with a LTC?