quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
Maybe the chances of a lawsuit are affected by region and culture.

It must be. Because everything here gets a lawsuit.

Agreed. Any shooting here come with a lawsuit attached. Doesn’t even have to be a shooting lol. I’ve been sued 3 times myself in 16 years. Twice in my 3 years as a uniformed police officer and once as a fed. I’ve never fired my gun in the field except to dispatch an animal. I’ve also never had a single complaint filed against me in 16 years. Yes that’s right I have been sued even when the plaintiff couldn’t have been bothered to file a personnel complaint. Lawsuits are just part of the landscape in this profession unfortunately. Honestly, once you get past the initial shock of seeing your name listed as “Defendant” in US District Court, you learn not to pay it much mind. I’ve also never had a judgment against me either. It has really soured me on a large portion of the legal profession however, namely the civil law practitioners who’ve never collected a retainer and instead go chasing headlines with nothing but contingency clients.

Lawsuits are part of the fun!
After a knock down, drag out fight involving an entire family, I was investigated by the FBI. Nothing like sitting in your own interview room and being Mirandized by the Feebs. They blew off the complaint but we were sued anyway. Our local court eventually dismissed it.
I latched onto some robbery suspects that while fleeing the store, ran over an employee. After a wild, Hollywood like pursuit (at one point they drove through a large wooden shed) in which the suspect vehicle crashed into a large grape arbor, I ended up in a protracted physical fight with the driver. Ever fight in a grape arbor? Its a challenge! I finally got him into cuffs. I lost a lot of skin on the wires of the arbor, including the skin off both my shins from below the knee to the tops of my ankles. Just before the statute of limitations was up, the asshole sued me. From prison! Our court also dismissed that suit too. What turned the tide for me was the photos taken of my injuries from the fight.
In both these incidents, no firearms were used.
Use any force of any type, no matter how justified and you run the risk of being sued.

quote:

Originally posted by car541:

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog7972:
The reality is that in virtually every single Police shooting there is going to be a lawsuit no matter how rightious that shooting is. It doesn't really matter.

That is not even close to being true. At my job we have a decent number of shootings, and Of the good ones, only about 10% ever have a civil case filed, most of those get thrown out in qualified immunity hearings, and the rest get a trial.

Of the ones with a questionable element, the percentage is IRRC about 100%. The questionable element cases have been about 2% of the total in my experience.

It will be interesting to see if this one goes to trial on the civil case. The case will be about whether or not the last 2 shots were necessary, and the respondent will need to do a lot of education on the dynamics of stress decision making.

I do not know one single Police Officer that has been involved in a shooting that has not been sued. That includes both bad shootings and good ones. Maybe where you work the scum attorney’s haven’t figured it out but in Chicago a lawsuit is a given

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog7972:As far as her attending Taran Butlers school, again,so what? Many of us have attended schools all over the country with Tier 1 trainers.

You're aware of the allegations against Butler and his history of inappropriate conduct? Not to mention the many trainers who have kept their distance from him.

quote:

Does that make us crazed warriors just looking to kill someone? While I expect the attorney to make that arguement, I also expect the State to expose that for what it is when they defend an Officer in court or in the court of public opinion.

We all know on this forum that officers seeking training outside of their department's mandated courses, is a result of those departments short-comings in training and the desire to seek improvement of a perishable skill. The current trend is seeing departments and city attorneys to hang their own officers out to dry during a OIS, or not be communicative with the public, allowing the press to craft and shape the narrative, using language that automatically faults the officers action, instead of the perp's action which led to their demise.

if you're looking at the video which is an actual record of events, exactly what did she do that was wrong or against departmental policy?

it appears she did everything right

next

Filing a lawsuit doesn't require any grounding in fact, and doesn't mean that anyone actually did anything wrong. Anyone can sue anyone for anything at any time.

There's a big difference between being sued, and being successfully sued. (But it still sucks in the meantime, due to the time/money/stress outlay.)

Besides, when suing someone, it doesn't require successfully winning at trial to "win". Lots of lawsuits are filed purely as a means of harassment, or media grandstanding, or in hopes of simply getting a relatively small "shut up and go away" payoff settlement from the insurance carrier before it even goes to court.

All this talk about suing police officers is very confusing, because for the past month or two all I've been hearing is that police officers can't be sued. Hmmm, is it possible the media is actually misleading the public?

It sucks that she or any cop has to ever take a life but he sure wound up squaring off against the wrong cop. I think Toni's at least a bit better than average.

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog7972:As far as her attending Taran Butlers school, again,so what? Many of us have attended schools all over the country with Tier 1 trainers.

You're aware of the allegations against Butler and his history of inappropriate conduct? Not to mention the many trainers who have kept their distance from him.

quote:

Does that make us crazed warriors just looking to kill someone? While I expect the attorney to make that arguement, I also expect the State to expose that for what it is when they defend an Officer in court or in the court of public opinion.

We all know on this forum that officers seeking training outside of their department's mandated courses, is a result of those departments short-comings in training and the desire to seek improvement of a perishable skill. The current trend is seeing departments and city attorneys to hang their own officers out to dry during a OIS, or not be communicative with the public, allowing the press to craft and shape the narrative, using language that automatically faults the officers action, instead of the perp's action which led to their demise.

And when the lawsuit actually goes to court all that will be disposed of by any lawyer with even the most basic of skills. She will be fine.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
Maybe the chances of a lawsuit are affected by region and culture.

It must be. Because everything here gets a lawsuit.

This helps at the state level

quote:

CIVIL PRACTICE AND REMEDIES CODE

TITLE 4. LIABILITY IN TORT

CHAPTER 83. USE OF FORCE OR DEADLY FORCE

Sec. 83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY. A defendant who uses force or deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9, Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant's use of force or deadly force, as applicable.

https://www.latimes.com/califo...-on-mcbride-shooting

L.A. Police Commission rules officer broke policy with final two shots in Hernandez killing

By KEVIN RECTOR, RICHARD WINTON
DEC. 15, 20209:40 PM
The Los Angeles Police Commission ruled Tuesday that LAPD Officer Toni McBride broke department policy when she continued shooting Daniel Hernandez during a fatal encounter in April — deciding McBride’s first four shots were justified, but her fifth and sixth shots were not.

Hernandez had been involved in a vehicle collision on San Pedro Street near East 32nd Street on April 22 when McBride and her partner arrived on the scene. Video showed McBride repeatedly advised Hernandez to drop a box cutter that he was holding as he approached her, then shot him six times in a matter of seconds.

Hernandez went down to the asphalt after the first two shots, but quickly pushed himself up and forward again. McBride then fired four more rounds — the final two coming as Hernandez was on the ground.

The commission’s decision in the controversial case — which it made in a rare 4-1 split vote — matched the recommendation of staff in the LAPD inspector general’s office who reviewed the shooting, but broke with that of LAPD Chief Michel Moore, who had recommended that all six shots be found justified.

It also followed emotional testimony from Hernandez’s mother, his daughter and five of his siblings during the commission’s virtual meeting Tuesday, who denounced the shooting, called for McBride to be prosecuted for murder and remembered Hernandez as a doting father and son who helped his parents with their carpeting business.

“When my father died, a part of me died with him,” said Melanie Hernandez, 15. “I will never understand Toni McBride’s actions.”

What punishment McBride will face, if any, falls to Moore, who said Tuesday afternoon that he had not made any decisions.

“I will reflect on this and look back on this investigation again before I make a final decision,” Moore said.

McBride could not be reached for comment Tuesday.

The case had drawn widespread attention in part due to McBride’s controversial persona as a dolled-up sharp-shooting influencer on social media — where her critics say she glorifies police violence — and because of the influence in policing circles of her father, Jamie McBride, who is one of nine directors of the powerful Los Angeles Police Protective League, the union that represents rank-and-file officers in labor and discipline issues.

Former Los Angles County Dist. Atty. Jackie Lacey, who received millions of dollars from the police union for her failed reelection campaign, recused herself from investigating the shooting this summer, with the California attorney general’s office agreeing to take over the case in August.

The Police Commission’s administrative decision Tuesday has no bearing on the attorney general’s review, which is ongoing.

Arnoldo Casillas, an attorney for the Hernandez family, said he was happy the commission found McBride at fault, but that Moore’s stance smacked of favoritism.

“There is a very significant appearance of impropriety for the chief to be so lenient with the daughter of a very powerful member of the police protective league,” he said. “He hasn’t spoken just yet in terms of the discipline, but the fact that he found no fault in any of the shooting is incredibly disappointing.”

The commission also voted unanimously, and in line with recommendations from the inspector general and Moore, that the tactics used by McBride’s partner — who did not engage Hernandez — broke department policy. Moore, who will also decide if that officer is punished, said the officer had not met department standards requiring officers to “work together as a team, and work in that team toward resolving risk to themselves and others.”

McBride had asked her partner about the availability of less-lethal weapons to halt Hernandez’s advancing toward her but never obtained them prior to the shooting. McBride fired six times, striking Hernandez each time. According to a report released in the case Tuesday, McBride told investigators she was concerned about the safety of bystanders in the area, and felt Hernandez was determined to harm someone.

Experts in police shootings have largely defended McBride’s first shots but have been split on the latter ones. Activists, meanwhile, have denounced the shooting for months, joining the Hernandez family in calling for McBride to be prosecuted for murder. They’ve focused in part on a finding by the coroner that it was the final shots that killed Hernandez, and have argued that McBride should have sought to deescalate the situation from the start.

It is rare for the commission to find an officer broke policy in a fatal shooting, and even more so when the police chief recommends clearing the officer.

Their split ruling delineating the final two shots from the first four reflected a parsing of the incident that mirrored the broader public debate in the case and considerations that members of Hernandez’s family had made as well.

During the commission meeting, Hernandez’s oldest sister, Luz, argued that all of the shots were unjustified, as she felt the distance between Hernandez and McBride should have provided “ample time for her to deescalate the situation” or utilize less-lethal weapons prior to opening fire.

However, Luz Hernandez said the latter shots “were even more unjustifiable,” and that her brother would still be alive if they hadn’t occurred.

“Once on the ground my brother Danny did not pose any imminent threat to her or any other officers on scene,” she said. “These shots cannot be justified given that he was immobilized, on the ground and no longer a threat. This was an unjustified murder and it should be prosecuted.”

Hernandez’s mother, Maria, told the commission in Spanish that she demanded justice and wanted to see McBride prosecuted.

“What right do you have to take his life? Why does LAPD work within this system of corruption? Why?” she asked.

Retired LAPD Sgt. Cheryl Dorsey agreed that McBride’s latter shots were unjustified. Dorsey said LAPD officers are trained to fire two shots, and then to reassess. She said McBride did that but made the wrong decision when she decided to continue firing — with the last two shots the most troubling.

“He was down on the ground,” she said.

McBride deserves to be punished, she said, but with Moore having recommended she be cleared, she was skeptical a sufficient punishment would come.

Other experts said McBride did everything right.

Ed Obayashi, a Plumas County deputy and police shooting expert who investigates use of deadly force, said McBride “demonstrated professionalism and solid tactics” as Hernandez posed an immediate threat not only to her but to the many bystanders in the area.

“She does what every officer would do and shoots an immediate deadly threat. He could have gone right and left and been in that crowd of onlookers,” Obayashi said. “She didn’t panic.”

Obayashi called the commission’s decision “a completely uninformed and unrealistic assessment” of the situation McBride found herself in, and said it seemed to be punishing McBride for keeping her cool and pausing between shots instead of immediately unloading her entire magazine.


Staff writer James Queally contributed to this report.

I think she should cite the excellent example from my hero lawman, Raylan Givens.

He has a happy knack of shooting the almighty shit out of a BG, ALL the way down, plus two more to make sure he stays there.

As we say in our house, Most Excellent!

The "Police Commission" should all go fuck themselves. They threw McBride under the bus and opened the door for yet another ghetto lottery win. And took nearly 6 months to do it.
McBride should look for another agency to work for and the entire LAPD should undertake a job action to support her.

If the deceased had stabbed some poor bastard that day, the Hernandez family wouldn’t give two shits about the stabbing victim.

I have seen some vids posted on this forum of Women cops not being up to the job. McBride was absolutely up to the job and her coolness under pressure and excellent marksmanship are no joke.

What is a joke is the police commission out there thinking they are anything other than a bunch of sorry bitches that will fold like a lawn chair when having to deal with ghetto trash.

Out of curiosity, I got onto Google Maps and matched the approximate places on San Pedro Street where the officer and suspect stood when the shooting occurred. By zooming in and using the new "measure distance" feature, I estimated the distance between them as approximately 56 feet---not quite 20 yards.

How or whether that will factor into any legal proceeding is anyone's guess.

Yoop, the police commission is comprised of citizens who have never been cops...don’t know exactly what they do, or how it is actually done in the real world...

And they are too stupid to see that all the taxpayers have to shovel out money when people win the ghetto lottery.....

It was a good shoot back when I first saw it and it’s a good shoot today....some Monday morning quarterback says different, that’s all.

She's a competent officer. Keep throwing them under the bus and all that will be left are incompetent officers.

I agree with all of the above posters, fuck the morons at the police commission. It was a good shoot.

Retired Sgt. Cheryl Dorsey chimed in? Who is she? Sounds like a Desk jockey who never “really did the job” and now being a Blue Falcon to this officer. LAPD trains two shots and re-access? Never heard of such a thing and I highly doubt LAPD does that.

quote:

Originally posted by 357fuzz:
Retired Sgt. Cheryl Dorsey chimed in? Who is she? Sounds like a Desk jockey who never “really did the job” and now being a Blue Falcon to this officer. LAPD trains two shots and re-access? Never heard of such a thing and I highly doubt LAPD does that.

So take two shots, then maybe give the perp a chance for a couple of shots. It's only fair.