Request the removed parts be returned to you or at minimum take photos of them and any serial numbers on them as there might be core charges on the injectors or the pump.

On the water separator issue. We were selling Racor water separators in the 80's installing them on all the GM engines from the 4.3 (if memory is correct) through the 5.7 and 6.2 engines. It would have made more sense if GM had offered an accessory package designed for those specific installations or had just put them on at the factory.

Water contaminated fuel is a diesel problem. That's a fact not an excuse. There's a fuel/water separator with a drain valve on it that the manual says to periodically drain into clear dry container for a reason. I don't know of a single manufacturer that warranties against water in the fuel.

The design flaw with the Bosch CP4 pump is separate from the OP's issue and doesn't appear to be the cause of the OP's problem. It is not a Ford exclusive issue as many manufacturers use this pump. Google GM CP4 for fun.

quote:

A proper vehicle manufacturer would NEVER allow such a thing...

Good to know, I'll be sure to stay away from Ford, GM, Ram, Nissan, BMW, VW, Audi, Jeep, Porsche, etc as they are not proper vehicle manufacturers then.

My next truck will likely not be a diesel. In 2015, a diesel was the only option that would tow what I wanted to tow. I have yet to experience any economic benefit from owning a diesel pickup truck. The diesel costs more than gas, I get 14.5mpg around town and 8.5mpg towing the 5th wheel on the highway. The DEF pump went bad at $1,200 to fix. I paid an extra $400 to replace the DEF heater at the same time because the labor would be the same. Since my truck has never seen and will probably never see freezing temps, I probably should have skipped it.

Now that there's gas power trucks that are rated to tow what I want to tow, I'll look hard at them when the time comes.

I get what you are saying they all use the same vendors but Ford isn’t doing a damn thing for the OP in fact they are the opposite of helpful.

It's not only the same vendor, it's the same pump. I'm not defending any manufacturer for using this pump. It's a poor design.

Ford wouldn't do anything for the OP if he ran his truck into a tree and blamed worn brake pads for not stopping him in time either. Not saying that sigolicious is or would do this. Bad fuel isn't Ford's problem. I did point out in an earlier post that if the water in the fuel indicator was faulty, that it would then potentially become Ford's problem. I would think the computer would keep a record of when this sensor went off.

A guy I know in Michigan was towing an empty equipment trailer this spring with his F250 when its 6.7 Powerstroke threw a rod. The truck had 111,000 miles on it. He had an extended warranty, so the $11,000 to repair it was covered. Crap happens. I don't have an extended warranty. Now I learn about this pump thing that could potentially cost me $10,000 to fix and with almost 100,000 miles on my truck, I don't exactly have warm fuzzy feelings towards my truck or Ford. I ordered the bypass kit and I'll be calling my insurance agent today to find out if I'm covered for contaminated fuel.

I'm glad things seem to be working out for sigolicious. You do the best you can to make good decisions and even then life kicks you in the nads sometimes.

I understand what you are saying - water gets in fuel, or condenses in the fuel lines. That happens. But it has always happened. And only when the three major manufactures go to the Bosch CP4 pump did problems go off the charts. And those dramatic increases in problems correspond to the years these three started using CP4 pumps.

All, 100%, of Bosch's CP4 pumps are incompatible with American clean diesel fuel. Previous CP3 pumps never had anywhere near the extent of problems the CP4 pumps have. Oh, there were occasional problems, but there wasn't an epidemic of problems like there is with CP4 pumps.

And water-in-the-fuel is a convenient excuse for the manufacturers that use Bosch CP4 pumps because the damage to the CP4 caused by their inherent flaws mimic that damage that would be caused if they were flawless and really did get water in the fuel.

CP4 high pressure fuel pumps are insufficient. Not only are they inadequately lubricated by American clean diesel (assuming it is pumping the quantity of fuel it is intended to pump), but the pump is far less powerful than the old CP3 pumps in that it lifts an insufficient amount of fuel from the tanks, mixes it with air, and cause the pump to run dry and shed metal into the fuel lines. Water-in-the-fuel would do this. But it doesn't take water-in-the-fuel contamination to do it to a CP4 pump. It will do that all on its own due to its utter inadequacies. So, since the damage from either cause is the same, Ford uses the convenient excuse that there must have been water in the fuel.

The problems with CP4 pumps is well documented. The problems Ford, Chevy and Chrysler had with these issues increased dramatically in the years they went from CP3 pumps to CP4 pumps. It's not a coincidence. Even Bosch's own internal e-mails speak to their inadequacies with American fuel.

So as long as there is a convenient excuse available, like water in the fuel, these companies will refuse to acknowledge they are using defective pumps in their vehicles. If they want us to believe there is all this water in US diesel fuel supplies, why is is effecting, eventually, every single American-made diesel pick up that uses a CP4 pump? While older diesels with CP3 pumps and commercial vehicles aren't being affected to the same extent.

There is a class action suit aganist General Motors also.

this is not a direct response to the above, but none the less relevant. ANYONE who uses today's diesel fuel without taking additional actions is just kidding themselves and will pay the price eventually. You need additional filtration, and addition lubricity. both aren't tough to add, but you have to be dedicated about it. Otherwise just expect your f***ed.

GM is the only company that recognized the issue with Bosch CP4 pumps (though they still won't admit the ones they used were inherently defective), and did away with Bosch from 2017 on. They now use a standard lift pump in the tank, and a redesigned Denso high pressure fuel pump and injector system that is, apparently, far more robust and delivers an adequate amount of fuel.

Both Ford and Chrysler use the Bosch CP4 pump in their diesels to this day.

Geico officially cut the check yesterday to cover this as a comprehensive claim. Some parts are on backorder so not yet firm on when I'll get the truck back.

Learned some lessons from this event and some things from this thread. Already have the bypass kit on order and will install as soon as I get the truck home. Am researching my options for selling and looking at oder dodge and ford trucks that I can work on at home.

^^^^^^^ Good to hear!!!

Wondering if the current production Dodge trucks with the Diesel uses that same Bosch fuel pump? Is Dodge using the Cummings?


I have a friend looking for a new diesel 3/4 or 1 ton pickup to tow a 5th wheel. They were looking at the Big 3 automakers offerings.

I still would not let Ford off the hook, they just want to see you go away. They still bear some responsibility IMO.

Very good. Glad to see the his moving towards a good resolution.

quote:

Originally posted by OKCGene:

Wondering if the current production Dodge trucks with the Diesel uses that same Bosch fuel pump? Is Dodge using the Cummings?

Cummins started using it in on their 6.7 2019, so current model RAM diesels have it. GM stopped using it in 2018.

sigolicious,

That is good news. I got my kit yesterday and read the instructions. I'd ask whoever is doing the work for you to install it. They are going to have to remove the same parts and more you would have to anyway. Installing the kit at that point looks to be an extra half hour.

quote:

Bosch CP4 pump failures

Why Is the CP4 Pump Allegedly Failing?

The primary reason the CP4 pump is said to fail is because the pump was not designed for diesel fuel in the United States.

Bosch is a European company, and Europe uses diesel fuel with more sulfur than U.S. diesel fuel. The cleaner, Ultra-Low-Sulfur Diesel used in America does not lubricate the CP4 as well as European diesel, makes it difficult on the CP4’s hydraulic pistons to continue working, according to the experts at Diesel Army.

The CP4 also is said to struggle to supply adequate fuel to the engine under the lower pressure of these more efficient engines. The result is the formation of air bubbles inside the CP4. Air in the pump means that metal rubs against metal, causing accelerated wear. This will eventually cause the CP4 to fail, often around 100,000 miles. Before it fails, metal shavings are produced by the CP4, which travel into the fuel injectors and the fuel lines with catastrophic results.

https://www.forthepeople.com/c...ump-failure-lawsuit/

You might as well join in, the description in the suit sounds exactly like what happened to your truck.

Is Your Vehicle Affected?

Owners of the following vehicles have likely spent money to resolve CP4 issues, or have had to replace the entire fuel system in their vehicle when the CP4 failed:

GM

2011-present GM Sierra trucks with 6.6L V8 Duramax LML engines
2010-2011 GM Savana vans with diesel engines
Certain GM Sierra diesel trucks with RPO ZW9 chassis cabs or pickup box delete
Chevrolet

2011-present Chevy 3500 Silverado trucks with 6.6L V8 Duramax LML engines
2010-2011 Chevy Express vans with diesel engines
Ford

2011-present Ford pickups with 6.7L V8 PowerStroke diesel engines
Dodge

2014-present Dodge Ram pickups with 3.0L diesel engines
Jeep

2014-present Jeep Grand Cherokees with 3.0L diesel engines

quote:

Originally posted by Sigolicious:
Geico officially cut the check yesterday to cover this as a comprehensive claim. Some parts are on backorder so not yet firm on when I'll get the truck back.

Learned some lessons from this event and some things from this thread. Already have the bypass kit on order and will install as soon as I get the truck home. Am researching my options for selling and looking at oder dodge and ford trucks that I can work on at home.

That's great news. I would check and see if a different style pump could be installed instead of the CP4.

Glad to hear this is being sorted out for you.


This guy has a long history on YT helping out the PS community.


https://youtu.be/e3jWlril-zs


https://youtu.be/FcgSIb6ClJs

Saga finally at an end, after a final kick in the nuts!

After Gieco cut the check for fuel system replacement, I had to ask them for a supplemental because FoMoCo didn't have the fuel system kit in stock and no other dealer would cough one up for dealer cost. Geico got it done.

Thursday the 10th I get a call saying truck is ready, but there is a new issue after the test drive. Batteries are shot after sitting 52 days. Well, they are 4.5yrs old, but I told the dealer at week two they better keep a charge on them because it has been sitting for awhile and looks to be sitting more. Batteries replaced.

Go to town on the 11th, run errands, swing by the dealer at 3pm. Oops, it wasn't the batteries, it's a bad alternator. Fuuuuuuuuuuck! Alternator on order, will be here Monday the 14th and we will have it ready for pickup on the 15th.

Last call on Monday at 4:45, alternator came in and will be installed in AM, truck ready by noon for pick up. Getting ready to head to town for the 2hr drive one way to pick up the truck on tuesday and get a call. Sorry, we ordered the wrong alternator, it will be ready for pick up on wednesday the 16th. Fuuuuuuuuuck!

Got the call at 4:45 that it was ready for pick up on wednesday at 4:50, they close at 5pm and I am 2hrs away.

Picked up on the 17th. I was fit to be tied and ready to do jail time when I picked it up. I am sure the service manager knew this. They covered cost of new batteries & alternator. So I held my tongue and paid my deductible portion of the $12,672.00 for the fuel system replacement.

Overall they dealer service manger was really very good on this deal as was the GM of the dealership. They tried every way they could to get ford to warranty this but it just wasn't to be. Best they could do was the free alternator and batteries, so in the end I give the 4 stars for effort and service.

Drove home great. Picked up a trailer and went to town and got 1100glns of water, 80glns of gas, 50glns of diesel, and 79glns of propane. 13500lbs and this truck gets it done for me. My trust is currently restored and I hope it stays that way. But, just in case, I have a bypass kit on order and am looking at a couple other performance/longevity upgrades.

Your saga isn't over. It's just beginning - again. Did they replace the fuel pump with another CP4 pump? If so, the clock on the time bomb started the moment the key was turned. Might be a good time to put the truck on the market.

What an ordeal. Glad you got it worked out successfully.

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:
Your saga isn't over. It's just beginning - again. Did they replace the fuel pump with another CP4 pump? If so, the clock on the time bomb started the moment the key was turned. Might be a good time to put the truck on the market.

Bypass kit for that is on order. It's not the best solution, but a replacement pump is cheaper than the entire fuel system. Also on the hunt for an older truck that doesn't use CP4 pump. I'm also in a terrible market to sell as I am 2hrs from most folks who would be interested. I am weighing all my options though.

I have handled some warranty claims for clients. I have gotten the manufacturer to do warranty repairs every time, as I remember (but results aren't guaranteed). What I have found is that the dealers don't give a rat's ass, but the manufacturers will generally step up and make the repairs. I have even gotten manufacturers to make expensive repairs, even when the owner may well have done something to contribute to the problem. Go straight to the manufacturer.

I usually write my demand letter to the dealer, and the manufacturer, addressed to the corporate general counsel. It is usually easy to find who a car maker's GC is.