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goodheart |
Having read the above, i would not put it past the Conclave to pick an American pope because he’s known to be anti-Trump. I hope that I’m too cynical, and I hope for the best for the Catholic Church. I have two Catholic grandchildren. _________________________ “Remember, remember the fifth of November!" | |||
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I think that everyone needs to relax and take a deep breath concerning our new Pope. Give the man a chance to be a good Pope and turn some things around. Nobody knows what lies ahead.....time will tell. Doc out!! | |||
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Didn't realize there were so many liberals on this site. You know, belittling people for their beliefs instead of trying to talk about our differences. | |||
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Fairly Traditional Catholic, here. I'm cautiously optimistic about Pope Leo XIV. I think he will be on the traditional side of moderate. Let us remember, he is the Vicar of Christ, the leader of Christ's Church. He is a successor of Peter. He is NOT a political figure. That was what made Jorge Bergoglio (AKA Francis) such a disgrace. He put his radical politics above his vocational obligations. He was vindictive, confusing, misleading, and at times heretical. I don't see those traits from Leo XIV. I think the papacy will make a moderate into a conservative. Radical modernists will remain radical. This is evidenced by his appearance in traditional papal vestments, his prayer in Latin, and his bowing of the head at the Holy Name. Small signs that a traditionalist would appreciate. His first homily was excellent. I won't punish Leo XIV for the sins of his predecessor. May his papacy be filled with the love of God, the faith of the ages, and the hope of Christ. May he spread the Gospel to every corner of the Earth. May he shepherd Christ's flock and glorify the Lord. | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money  |
^^ Well said! "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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Frangas non Flectes |
More nonsense. You started with an ad hominem, I called it what it was, and you responded with another one. You didn’t want a discussion, and that’s fine, but it’s silly to act offended. ______________________________________________ Endeavoring to master the subtle art of the grapefruit spoon. | |||
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Oriental Redneck |
The people who despise Trump is for one reason and one reason only, and that is, they despise him for his personality. No matter what good he does, it’s never good for them, and they make all kinds of excuses. But the bottom line truth is, it’s his personality. That’s true Trump Derangement Syndrome. On the other hand, you can’t honestly say that the people who leave the Catholic Church do so because they have the Francis Derangement Syndrome. They do because of his policy. The man’s personality has nothing to do with it. Even before Francis, they left the Church because of disagreement in policy and not because of anyone person. So, I’m 100% with Smudge on this. Equating the two groups is just nonsense. Q | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money |
I agree, it’s policy. The new guy has the potential to be better. https://www.americanthinker.co..._in_the_vatican.html "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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Be that as it may, and I do agree with you on the TDS front, let me give a Catholic perspective on people leaving the Church over Bergoglio (Francis). People who leave the Catholic Church never leave because of one person or another, a scandal, or a lack of excitement. They always leave because they never understood the Church in the first place. Let me explain. The Catholic Church teaches that the Eucharist, the Blessed Sacrament, or communion, is transubstantiated into the REAL body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ. That while it may still look, feel and taste like bread and wine, it is wholly transformed in its substance. There is both biblical evidence and real, physical evidence of this truth. The Bread of Life Discourse found in John 6 is a good starting point, and there are dozens of additional biblical verses that support the Catholic Doctrine. The physical evidence is compelling and ages like a fine wine. There are Eucharistic Miracles, too many to count, where physical changes occur, often as a sign to wary priests or bishops. Look up the Eucharistic Miracles of Lanciano and try to disprove it.... You can't. Nobody can. There are dozens of scientifically studied miracles that corroborate the Catholic theology of transubstantiation. The Shroud of Turin, which is gaining popularity even in protestant circles is also corroborating evidence of not only Christ's resurrection, but also His presence on the Eucharist. Blood types match every single time, which is something medieval forgers couldn't have dreamed of. If someone understood the Church and understood the Eucharist.... How could they ever leave that? All the scandal in the world couldn't pull me away from that. All the liberal prelates and anti Trump rhetoric in the world couldn't either. I don't have to like them, but I do have to be in Communion with them. Part of the Universal Church is all the things in the universe that I don't agree with. I won't walk away from Christ because the priest is a liberal. I may find a niche within the church that is more comfortable, like a traditional parish, but leave the church.... Never. I pointed out to my Baptist father-in-law that if I'm wrong I'm a pagan idolater. I'm a rube who thinks a wafer is Jesus. But I still love God and practiced a literal interpretation of many bible verses. If the protestant is wrong, however, he rejects Christ. He rejects the New Covenant or Testament. The New Covenant was a sacrament before it was a document.... According to the document. The Eucharist predates the physical papers of the New Testament by a long shot. I look at the Catholic Church as Clopas' church. Our eyes are opened in the breaking of the Bread. | |||
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| Green grass and high tides  |
Amen, thank you for your thoughtful post Cous2492.. "Practice like you want to play in the game" | |||
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| Save today, so you can buy tomorrow |
I am raised, baptized Catholic. I was an altar boy for few years when I was young. There are some sermons during the service that I personally do not agree with. I just ignore those and carry on. We go to the church because of our faith. I honestly believe about the separation of Church from the State. But sometimes during homily, some words were said that I dont necessarily agree with. Those, I just ignore. Not enough for me to abandon my faith. I call myself selective practicing Catholic. I may not go to heaven because of that.  I hope our new pope will unite the Catholic community. _______________________ P228 - West German | |||
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Told cops where to go for over 29 years… |
Hmm, lots of interesting posts in this thread… I am a Christian, raised in the Episcopal (or as I call it “Catholic Light”) church. As a teen, I had no idea what the difference was between all the different Christian denominations were or how there could be so many different ideas on which one was “right”. As I got older I learned how the Church of England (which became the Epsicopal church in the US) came to be. The Catholic/Protestant “Troubles” in Ireland were also going on during this time and it really caused me to question Christianity as a whole how two different denominations, supposedly following the same teachings, could behave in such a fashion. While it thankfully didn’t sour me to my faith, it did make me very suspicious of “organized” religion. At the same time, I was beginning to see a lot of hypocrisy in the local church I was attending and even getting mixed signals from my “good Christian” mother who couldn’t say the word “Catholic” without using the “Damn” or “F’n” modifier in from of the word when we went to a church that used the “Catholic Hymnal”. At that time (16ish) I turned my focus from “Church religion” to the Bible. Most of my adult life I considered myself “non-denominational” and preferred sermons and teachings that were biblical without a lot of “extra” extrapolations. To this day, as verses are tossed out in a sermon, I refer to the verses before and after the chosen one to make sure I understand the context. Many times I have found folks pick and chose and proffer a verse to make a point only to find out the verse used, when taken in full context, does not. I am currently regularly attending and a member of the Church of the Nazarene. Our lead pastor and church theology have been a refreshing contrast to previous experiences with other denominations, leading to my decision to be baptized 4 years ago. I am also a church volunteer and have done three mission trips as a result of finding this church. The Nazarene denomination seems to stick to biblical teaching and relying on scripture without a lot of added “extras”. Personally, my take is that many Catholics put too much emphasis on the “Pope” and in many ways elevate the position to an equal if not higher footing than Jesus himself. The Catholic Church claims the Disciple/Apostle Peter (Simon) as their own and consider him the ”first” Pope. This is a contrived position created by the Catholic Church. Nowhere in the biblical record does the pope position exist. Jesus did not place Peter above the other Apostles and no biblical teachings show Peter exerting such a position for himself. Many Catholics point to this as “proof” that the RCC is the one “true” Christian faith. Circular argument or self fulfilling that you use a position you created as proof of the belief you have. Catholicism teaching is once a mortal man ascends to the position of Pope he is “infallible”. I think any honest review of previous Popes show that is not to be the case. As others noted, they do get caught up in politics and power. The very process of selecting the pope is done by men (sinners all) and a political process. All men are sinners, all men are fallible - that is Christ’s teaching. Jesus even pointed out the errors and sins of his own disciples before and after they began following Him. They did not even become “infallible” after being hand picked by Jesus himself. I don’t believe this magically changes when one gets the top job, a position created by the “Church”, not created by Christ. I have long held that power leads to corruption, extreme power to extreme corruption. Outside of political office (to include royalty and dictators) no one else in this world has the extreme power of a Pope. I remember in the Marines it was often noted that each level of power has to add its “extra” to prove its worth, validate the position, or soothe an ego. If the Commandant said “All Marines” will shine their boots once a month, there was always a Base Commander that said “My Marines will shine their boots twice a month”. Invariably there would be a Group Commander that decided boots must be shined weekly followed by a Squadron Commander ordering boots to be shined daily. I nearly came to blows with another Marine who was denied liberty to attend the LA “pope-mobile” tour in the 80’s when I suggested it wasn’t that big of a deal and he would see more watching it on TV. He told me I didn’t understand the “blessing” it was to be in the vicinity of the Pope. I said “Well, I’m not Catholic”. He told me it didn’t matter what denomination or religion I was, and that the pope was the direct and chosen representative of God himself. I replied the pope was just a man, elected by other men who puts his pants on one leg at a time or his dress over his head. With that, he lunged at me and other coworkers pulled him away. Granted I am no biblical scholar, but my understanding is one of the “issues” Jesus had with the Sadducees and Pharisees was that over time the “Law” or rules and ceremony became more important and valuable than the biblical teachings and message/guidance. My admittedly limited experience in attending Catholic masses for funerals, weddings, and other reasons over the years reminds me of such a self-aggrandizing trend. What part of "...Shall not be infringed" don't you understand???  | |||
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It sounds like you are living a life of service and doing well in your new church. That is wonderful, and all people of all faith should support one another in things that glorify God. That being said, your post has demonstrated my point perfectly. You dont understand the Catholic faith in the slightest. Not even a little bit. And because you dont understand it, it's wrong and you are right. I can say, unfortunately, that I was in this pot at a point, and many others are also. I can't say that I really fault you for it, there is a lot of misinformation out there and the Bible is actually a pretty tricky book to understand when its taken as a whole, in context. You say that once a man ascends to the position of Pope, he is infallible. That isn't even a little true. It is a misunderstanding and misrepresentation of what Catholics believe about papal infallibility. As an example, Bergoglio (AKA Francis) said heretical things on a regular basis. It was shocking how many things he said and did that were contrary to Catholic teaching and doctrine. Bergoglio may have been the worst Pope in the last thousand years. That being said, he did absolutely nothing under the context of papal infallibility. In other words, Bergoglio could go around saying all sorts of things that were contrary to the faith, but unless he was teaching "ex cathedra," or from the chair of St. Peter, no (informed) Catholics were obliged to believe what he was saying. It is only when a Church Council or official church dogma is proclaimed is the papal authority considered "infallible." Catholic documents put out by the Pope called encyclicals dont even fall under papal infallibility! In short those instances are very few and very far between. And its usually used to settle a disagreement among Cardinals or in Councils. There are a million-and-one people who hate the Catholic Church for what they think it is; but almost none who hate it for what it really is. | |||
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Member |
Reference the Papal Infallibility concept. In Catholic Church history, there have been only two instances where a pope has formally declared a doctrine as infallible "ex cathedra" - that is, while speaking with the highest authority of the Church on a matter of faith or morals. These two instances are: 1) Pope Pius IX's declaration of the Immaculate Conception in 1854, and 2) Pope Pius XII's declaration of the Assumption of Mary in 1950. All other pronouncements as noted above (Papal Encyclicals) are only “teaching guidelines” and are subject to discussion but not mandatory belief. He could say that grass is purple and not green, but no one is required to accept that. --------------------- DJT-45/47 MAGA !!!!! “Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.” "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." — Mark Twain “Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.” — H. L. Mencken | |||
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| Staring back from the abyss  |
One of my favorite quotes from the great Abp. Sheen. I use it often. ________________________________________________________ "Great danger lies in the notion that we can reason with evil." Doug Patton. | |||
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Raptorman |
When does he get to have his graven image put on the currency of The Beast™? ____________________________ Eeewwww, don't touch it! Here, poke at it with this stick. | |||
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| Told cops where to go for over 29 years… |
Agreed!
I admittedly have a limited knowledge of Catholic particulars. But as I do with many religions (Mormon, Muslim, Hindu, and more), I do have a basic grasp of the major differences between them. I never said Catholics were wrong and I was right. I noted things that seemed contradictory to my thoughts and beliefs as well as my own experiences in some individuals near “worship” for a Pope. I’ve never heard of another Christian denomination having similar reverence/reactions/following to the leadership of their church. I am sure there are many differing beliefs amongst Catholics in regards to Catholicism just as there are with the followers of other denominations. I know many self-proclaimed Catholics (and Protestants) who are ok with abortion. I know of faithful, practicing Catholics who disagree/don’t believe the Transubstantiation doctrine and see the bread and wine as symbolic and not being physically transformed into the actual flesh and blood of Jesus at the time of communion. There is lots of debate between Transubstantiation and Symbolism. Much (most?) of Jesus’ teaching was done through parables and symbolism. It makes far more sense to me that His blessing of the bread and wine at the Last Supper were meant to be symbolic and instill a ritual of remembrance and worship than the idea of literally ingesting the flesh and blood of Jesus. Some Catholics go so far as to claim denominations/followers who see the Eucharist as symbolic reject Jesus and are heretics. Some non-Catholic Christians claim the Pope to be the heretic. Round and round we go, who is right? No mortal will know. Personally, I believe anything that puts a wedge between a believer and Jesus is the work of satan. I’ve stated my history and my beliefs. They are admittedly my opinion and when it comes to religion, it is ALL based on faith. No one can, with certainty, claim “right” or “wrong”. If it could be done there would be no need for faith. We all hope we are right but until the afterlife is revealed to us individually, we will not know.
“I” didn’t say that, I presented it as a Catholic teaching I am aware of as an example of how the Pope is elevated. I did make it as a generalized statement and yes the full Catholic doctrine does limit the infallibility to just “certain” situations. Even within the Catholic Church however there seems to be disagreement on the subject. While you absolutely have a better understanding of it than I do, I’ve known several Catholics who don’t think there is ANY limitation to the concept.
Disagreement or differing beliefs are not the same as hate. Just think how much better the world would be if more folks understood that. What part of "...Shall not be infringed" don't you understand??? | |||
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Lots of folks, both Catholic and Protestant, have argued over the position of the Pope both in secular/civil life and in religious life. That argument goes back to the time of the Fall of Ancient Rome. In 450AD, Byzantine Emperor Theodosius 2 identified Pope Leo the First (AKA, “Pope Leo the Great”) as “Patriarch of the West”, thus granting the Pope secular and religious authority. He (Pope Leo) later talked Attila the Hun out of sacking Rome in 452. As for transubstantiation versus consubstantiation, that argument goes back to the Anglican vs Roman Churches. The “Real Presence” controversy stems from Luther versus Zwingli at the Marburg Colloquy in 1529 with the words “This Is My Body” written by Luther on a table cloth in answer to Zwingli’s questions. A good book that I read back in college in the early 1970s was “Here I Stand: A life of Martin Luther” by Protestant historian Roland Bainton, published in 1950. As for the Pope’s effigy on coins, the Vatican as an independent City-State mints commemorative coinage in the Euro denominations (previously they were issued in the Lira denomination). While not a Euro zone member, the Vatican follows its specifications for coinage, and as such the Pope’s image as the secular head of the Vatican City-State appears on the coins. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_euro_coins --------------------- DJT-45/47 MAGA !!!!! “Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.” "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." — Mark Twain “Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.” — H. L. Mencken | |||
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| Staring back from the abyss |
That would be an image, not a "graven" image. The Pope is not worshipped...nor is Mary or any of the Saints (contrary to popular belief). There is but one worthy of worship. ________________________________________________________ "Great danger lies in the notion that we can reason with evil." Doug Patton. | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money |
^^ yes, there is a lot of misinformation about Catholicism coming into this thread … "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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