Speaking of the New Mexico tests. My wife’s mom was born in NM in 1943. All my wife’s aunts and uncles and grandparents lived in Hatch and Las Cruces. Both towns on the outskirts of white sands site. Her uncle was at a bus stop early in the AM the day they popped the first one off. Several of her aunts and uncles all died of cancer within 10-30 years of the testing. They can’t ever prove any correlation but it’s definitely an interesting anecdote. All adults in their early 20’s during the war and all passed before age 60.

I used to work next to Camp Parks in Dublin California. The old base was a military hospital built in 1945 for the express intent of receiving the wounded from the invasion of Japan. Obviously it was never used for that. It was the Guiness Book largest hospital in the world (by number of beds).

Even without firebombings of cities, between submarines, aircraft and air-dropped mining that were sinking every vessel going in or out, we had an effective blockade going that would eventually have starved them out - and also taken at least two years and caused more deaths and suffering. Nor could we let the Soviets invade. Japan would have been divvied up into North and South Japan. How did North and South Korea or Vietnam work out?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: egregore,

This article discusses something you rarely hear about WW2, deaths in the Pacific and more specifically, civilian.
In China it works out to around 23 Chinese vs 1 Japanese.
The Holocaust usually cites around 6 million Jews killed by the Nazis, but over 8 million Chinese civilians (likely more) were killed by the Japanese.
Often these were not unintended casualties spilling over into civilian areas, they were targeted. They did grotesque medical experiments that rival anything done by the Nazi's and often used captured soldiers as bayonet practice to toughen and desensitize new recruits to the horrors of combat.
Those numbers don't include similar horrors in countries like Vietnam, Korea and elsewhere in the Pacific.

https://www.americanheritage.com/counting-all-dead

The big problem was post war, Germany's face was rubbed into all the evil they did and now their holocaust museums reflect that contrition. MacArthur didn't do that in Japan. Maybe for the first year, do what they did but after that put Hirohito, Unit 731, and others on trial and then hang them upon conviction. But there were very few Nuremberg style trials. I read one historian who said that basically every Japanese soldier returning from China, was probably a war criminal. The Japanese museums in Hiroshima and Nagasaki blame the Americans for dropping the bombs. It is the equivalent of a German Holocaust museum showing the horrors and then adding there was some justifications for what Germany did. The guys in a Unauthorized History of the Pacific War podcasts (linked in previous posts) can explain it much better.

If you have ever visited the Nagasaki atomic bomb museum, as I have, you gain a personal sense of what happened that day so long ago. The devastation remains an emotional barrier to those citizens who looked at me, with distinct, visually apparent hatred. I sensed no such issue in my visit to Hamburg, a city fully destroyed by weeks of air raids.

Perhaps the incredible suddenness of destruction, followed by an extended time of radiation illnesses and deaths, was emotionally different than the protracted air war over Germany.

quote:

If you have ever visited the Nagasaki atomic bomb museum,

Funny you mention that.
A decade or so ago, I was visiting the Air Force Museum in Dayton and saw Bockscar and the nearby bomb mock up.
The only other people nearby were a small group of Japanese tourists who were standing quietly and just looking at the plane.
I was curious as they weren't talking, just staring, what might be going through their minds right now.
I certainly don't have any ill-feelings for the present generation, just wondered what they have been taught about those events and the war itself.

quote:

Originally posted by ElToro:
Speaking of the New Mexico tests. My wife’s mom was born in NM in 1943. All my wife’s aunts and uncles and grandparents lived in Hatch and Las Cruces. Both towns on the outskirts of white sands site. Her uncle was at a bus stop early in the AM the day they popped the first one off. Several of her aunts and uncles all died of cancer within 10-30 years of the testing. They can’t ever prove any correlation but it’s definitely an interesting anecdote. All adults in their early 20’s during the war and all passed before age 60.

ElToro,

The fallout cloud went west as far as Magdalena/Socorro, and up into Belen, Mountainair, fifty to seventy five miles to the north and west of the test site. Unintended consequence. The towns of Claunch and Carrizozo were hit real hard.

There were isolated ranches that the army and Los Alamos were not even aware of that got fallout. Many of those isolated ranches collected rainwater from their roofs for drinking water, guess what they drank?

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
I'm not interested in the opinions of the ignorant.

You won't find one person in a hundred in this country who could describe conditions in the PTO in 1945, and who could tell you anything about the alternative to dropping the bombs. They wouldn't be able to accurately cite estimated casualty figures for the invasion of mainland Japan, nor the data upon which those figures was based.

They couldn't tell you the attitudes of the Japanese military establishment on the subject of surrender, nor tell you about the things the Japanese civilian population was being trained for and was prepared to do. They certainly have no clue about the millions of deaths which would have resulted from the invasion of mainland Japan.

To say I have contempt for the opinions of the ignorant on this subject is putting it mildly.

I was one of the 99 ignorant, and I had a BS in History. My 20th Century American professor was very anti the use of the bombs. But then in grad school I read EB Sledge "With the Old Breed" and I knew my worldview was changing as I read it.

I have never felt the same since.

From what I have read there were considerable, and lengthy, discussions among the politicians and generals in WDC and the field about dropping the bombs and next steps in prosecuting the war against Japan. Among the troops who had been on the ground fighting the Japanese in the Pacific, there was genuine fear that an invasion of the Japanese homeland was likely to result in their deaths, not unreasonable given their experiences in the Pacific theater. Truman was not only a politician but had fought in WWI, so I do not think he made his calculation lightly, nor solely out of domestic political considerations. From what we now know of the widespread, and deliberate, atrocities committed by the Japanese throughout the Pacific theater and against Allied soldiers, I simply cannot work up sympathy for the Japanese people who worshipped their Emperor and the Japanese military. Unfortunately, the leftists in the US have long bought into this drama with no apparent consideration to the Japanese atrocities which led up to the dropping of nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki--where is their sympathy for the victims of Japan's war of aggression?

quote:

Originally posted by 4MUL8R:
If you have ever visited the Nagasaki atomic bomb museum, as I have, you gain a personal sense of what happened that day so long ago. The devastation remains an emotional barrier to those citizens who looked at me, with distinct, visually apparent hatred...

I never detected any hatred in the Hiroshima Peace Park. We lived in Kure, about 20 mi S of ground zero, 1989-93 while I worked at the Army's Akizuki Ammo Depot.

We often took them train into Hiroshima, mainly to eat at the McDonalds. The Peace Park was a block away, and our toddler daughter enjoyed feeding the doves. We often ran info school children visiting the museum, and many times they approached us to practice their English with a native speaker. No hostility.

We lived off post in Kure in a Japanese neighborhood, everyone was wonderful. And there were about 400 Japanese who worked on the ammo dept. I never saw any hatred or hostility.

In his post on page 3, sigfreund pointed out that Japanese atrocities and other bad behavior are not taught in school. I believe that is correct, the government requires/enforces what we called "historical amnesia."

The WWII Japanese government and some/many soldiers were really really nasty, but we had only great experiences with Japanese people when we lived there.

ElToro,

I forgot to mention that I lived and worked in Socorro from 79 to 88 and from time to time I’d hear firsthand of what happened during the test.

And heard of the assumptions made by many residents of the connection between the tests and the a punt of cancers in people who were there during the test.

How many liberal Boomers and their kids who are currently mouthing off might not be here today had their fathers had to continue fighting in the PTO or had been moved over from Europe (like my Dad was supposed to be)?

I figure it this way. They started the war and we finished the war. It sucks so many civilians were killed. We didn’t start the war. If things were reversed, they would have used the bomb on us with no hesitation.

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmund:

quote:

Originally posted by 4MUL8R:
If you have ever visited the Nagasaki atomic bomb museum, as I have, you gain a personal sense of what happened that day so long ago. The devastation remains an emotional barrier to those citizens who looked at me, with distinct, visually apparent hatred...

I never detected any hatred in the Hiroshima Peace Park.
....

In his post on page 3, sigfreund pointed out that Japanese atrocities and other bad behavior are not taught in school. I believe that is correct, the government requires/enforces what we called "historical amnesia."

The WWII Japanese government and some/many soldiers were really really nasty, but we had only great experiences with Japanese people when we lived there.

A close friend and his wife recently returned from a trip to Japan and they visited Hiroshima's Peace Park, same reaction. They didn't detect or, feel there was any hatred towards the US, what information they did take away was an attitude of distinct aversion to nuclear weapons of any kind, used by anybody. My friend basically summed it up, if you're the person who has zero interest in the military or have a superficial attitude towards history then the US shouldn't have used the bomb because of the resulting horror. If you're knowledgeable of WWII and have a good handle on the history and details, then the take-away is sympathy for the civilians who had to endure a culture & regime that had very little care for its people.

Their tour discussed Pearl Harbor and other historical pivot-points of the war but, it sounded like there was a glossing over or, moving-past the grinding horrors of the island hopping campaign and how Japan was conducting the war, and the horrors that were inflicted. I do know from Japanese friends who grew up in Japan, that WWII is discussed in schooling but the behaviors and actions of how the war was conducted, the evolution of horror that progressed as the island campaign closed-in on the home islands, are not covered unless they're a college student doing research.

Here's a recent article on the subject of our having to invade Japan (had Japan not surrendered).

The title of the article: "What If Japan Hadn’t Surrendered in WWII? A Look at the Horrifying ‘Operation Downfall.’"

Published in the "National Security Journal."

"..this analysis explores Operation Downfall, the massive Allied invasion of Japan that was averted by Tokyo’s surrender.

-The two-stage plan, Operations Olympic and Coronet, would have involved more than twice the forces of the Normandy landings and was expected to be unimaginably costly."

"-Facing a fanatical defense, the U.S. anticipated staggering casualties, with some estimates exceeding one million American dead and unimaginable Japanese losses.

-While the use of the atomic bomb remains controversial, it likely spared the world from this far more devastating and bloody military conquest."
Details at link.

I.m.o.
The powers should have listened to the science guys and should have never detonated any of the 2000 nuclear bombs .

The side effects will be felt for another 200 years.

And
No nuke power plants either.

But
In 4000 years the humans have all the knowledge they think they need
But we really do not possess the wisdom to use the knowledge.

quote:

Originally posted by bendable:
I.m.o.
The powers should have listened to the science guys and should have never detonated any of the 2000 nuclear bombs .

The side effects will be felt for another 200 years.

And
No nuke power plants either.

Without nukes, what would have stopped the Soviets from marching all the way to the English Channel in 1946?

Or are we to believe they would have laid down their arms, sang Kumbaya, and lived in peace with the West for the next 80 years?

The Soviets stayed on their side of the fence because the US had nukes.

Period.