Competence is only relevant to whether you miss (your target) or not.

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Originally posted by smschulz:
Competence is only relevant to whether you miss (your target) or not.

As long as you don’t hit my granddaughters.

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Originally posted by JALLEN:

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Originally posted by YellowJacket:
are there any other constitutionally guaranteed rights that you have to be trained and qualify to use?

Are there any that can have you kill someone through carelessness or ineptitude?

I suppose people have drowned in full immersion baptism in exercise of their religious freedom, maybe some have been condemned to hell exercising polygamy and quite a few have been convicted and sent to prison or even executed because they insisted on talking ignoring their right to remain silent.

Driving a vehicle on public roads are widely considered an inviolable right, despite the unanimous view of state licensing oficials that it is a privilege.

Millions of people have died as a result of a misuse of the printing press. Inciting people to kill or die, misreporting facts which lead to people killing or maiming others. Freedom of the press is very dangerous, yet no training at all is required of anyone practicing it.

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Originally posted by BamaJeepster:

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Originally posted by JALLEN:

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Originally posted by YellowJacket:
are there any other constitutionally guaranteed rights that you have to be trained and qualify to use?

Are there any that can have you kill someone through carelessness or ineptitude?

I suppose people have drowned in full immersion baptism in exercise of their religious freedom, maybe some have been condemned to hell exercising polygamy and quite a few have been convicted and sent to prison or even executed because they insisted on talking ignoring their right to remain silent.

Driving a vehicle on public roads are widely considered an inviolable right, despite the unanimous view of state licensing oficials that it is a privilege.

Millions of people have died as a result of a misuse of the printing press. Inciting people to kill or die, misreporting facts which lead to people killing or maiming others. Freedom of the press is very dangerous, yet no training at all is required of anyone practicing it.

Not directly.

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Originally posted by V-Tail:
I agree, 100%, that other than the criminal type background check, there should be no legal impediment to a citizen's firearms rights.

I also believe that people should be strongly encouraged, not required by law, but encouraged, to become competent.

To this end, it is A Good Thing for those of us who have the opportunity, to invite others for a range session and use this as an occasion to reinforce safety standards and maybe point the guest(s) toward a source of good training.

How 'bout a campaign here in Florida, for gun dealers and trainers to work together? Maybe something like a discount certificate for training, when somebody buys a gun?

No surprise to me, but I agree with V-tail. There should be NO INFRINGEMENT on my right to keep and BEAR arms. Really. How hard is that for even us gun guys to get. IDGAF if you are a cop, a robber, a cowboy, an indian, a preacher or a teacher. You should not get to tell me when I carry- that IS an infringement. That said, I don't break the laws and I DO train- AND practice.

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Originally posted by JALLEN:

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Originally posted by BamaJeepster:

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Originally posted by JALLEN:

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Originally posted by YellowJacket:
are there any other constitutionally guaranteed rights that you have to be trained and qualify to use?

Are there any that can have you kill someone through carelessness or ineptitude?

I suppose people have drowned in full immersion baptism in exercise of their religious freedom, maybe some have been condemned to hell exercising polygamy and quite a few have been convicted and sent to prison or even executed because they insisted on talking ignoring their right to remain silent.

Driving a vehicle on public roads are widely considered an inviolable right, despite the unanimous view of state licensing oficials that it is a privilege.

Millions of people have died as a result of a misuse of the printing press. Inciting people to kill or die, misreporting facts which lead to people killing or maiming others. Freedom of the press is very dangerous, yet no training at all is required of anyone practicing it.

Not directly.

Does not make the dead any less dead......

I wish every gun owner and concealed carry permit holder would practice regularly, but I would never support any mandated training requirement or any additional government restrictions on obtaining a basic carry permit. Although I don't know much about them, I understand some states offer enhanced permits that allow carry in places normally off-limits or otherwise expanded carry rights. I would be open to requiring training as a compromise to allow people to carry in areas otherwise deemed off-limits like schools.

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Originally posted by HayesGreener:

The problem that nags me is that there are thousands of people walking around with a CWFL carrying concealed handguns that they are not competent with. In general this does not create a problem because the people who have CWFL's are law abiding and responsible adults. Bottom line is, having a CWFL does not equate to competence.

Who are you or anyone else to decide what standards one should have to be able to exercise a God given right? I'll tell you what the standard should be...you are a law-abiding individual born on this planet. Period.

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...at the same time I often wish there was a more stringent training requirement for the license.

Words can't describe just how much I disagree with this notion.

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For the time being we still have to rely on the individual's sense of responsibility to attain competence, and maybe that's the way it should be.

Right answer.

Unlike driving, where bad driving puts other people at risk, being bad with a handgun doesn't present much of a risk to general public.

I don't mean no additional risk, but not much additional risk. Hardly any permit holders ever shoot any one in the first place, and of those, the risk to bystanders is still not large.

Lots of training isn't going to do much.

The class I took in Florida required me to fire revolver with blanks at a target taped to a dumpster in the alley. As long as you didn't sweep the "instructor", you passed.

For me, this wasn't enough, so I asked at the LGS if the knew anyone who did basic handgun instruction. They gave me the card of a guy they said was really great. I kid you not, they guy showed up at the local public range sporting a CCW License badge pinned to his front pocket on his jeans. I paid for an hours instruction, but really felt there bad to be something better.

I had joined here and saw that GGI was going to be going to be doing Practical Fundamentals in Orlando. Seemed expensive at the time, but I decided to give it a try. Of course it was worth it and I didn't leave thinking it wasn't enough.

Instruction is available and I'm ok leaving up to the individual to determine how much to get.

Maybe what we should do is repeal the Bill of Rights, too restrictive, and substitute therefor The General Amendment:

“Nothing contained herein shall be construed to prevent a person from doing whatever he wishes, nor require him to do anything at all.”

While we are improving things, maybe we can remove “In God We Trust” from the currency snd substitute therefor “You Can’t Make Me!”

It seems to me that it takes some determination and effort for me to carry every day.

I expect that most people who won't train or practice, probably won't carry either.

If there was a hint of a problem, it would be constantly in the news, and we would make more laws.

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Originally posted by V-Tail:
I agree, 100%, that other than the criminal type background check, there should be no legal impediment to a citizen's firearms rights.

sums up my position


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Originally posted by Johnny 3eagles:
No arguing but: training costs money. Should only those who can afford training be licensed to carry? Poor people, well, tough luck, call 911.

Meh. People seem to afford everything they want within their realm. We have the fattest poor people on the planet.

I do not think you should have to have a government permission slip to exercise your Rights.

But,

Your argument ranks right up there with "for the children" in my book. This isn't the Dust Bowl. "Poor" people all seem to be able to afford new iPhones with little or no effort. And why wouldn't they? It is important to them. To make the claim that "poor people" have to be denied a Right for the basis of being "poor" is pretty silly. This isn't West Africa, and the needs of the "poor" get trotted out at any photo op for any number of lefty reasons. They always drag out little Timmy who, thanks to their government hand out, they get to eat every day. And if the mean old republicans had their way, little Timmy would starve. Republicans hate Timmy. Republicans hate poor people. So, it must be natural to drag out being "poor" on the topic, when in fact, the "poor" seem to afford the things that are important to them in this country. And if nothing else, at least they would have a skin in the game this way.

I wish Constitutional Carry would pass in more places.

Don't worry. When the leftist start treating gun ownership as a public health issue, you will have to jump through all sorts of hoops to be declared 'competent'.

Training is great until it isn't. You still get down to individual responsibility whether trained or not. The NRA teaches three rules for gun safety; I prefer Jeff Cooper's four. That's really all anyone needs with regard to the safety of others. All the rest is shit the individual will make use of or not as they wish, although it makes for some great interwebs discussion....

Both eyes open or not
60/40 40/60
white knuckle or just enough pressure to hold it
dry fire is great....only practice with full loads
if it's not a 45 you're dead anyway...10mm!!!!

all of the above has been stated at one time or another by expert trainers

Remember "I'm the only one qualified....."

Who trains the trainers? For every Massad Ayoob there are a hundred jerkoffs teaching shit that, if it doesn't get you killed, could get you in legal trouble. How do we separate the wheat from the chaff?

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Originally posted by egregore:
Who trains the trainers? For every Massad Ayoob there are a hundred jerkoffs teaching shit that, if it doesn't get you killed, could get you in legal trouble. How do we separate the wheat from the chaff?

Is this just a statement one would say to let themselves off the hook? Like saying you would eat healthier but it’s so confusing?

We are in a golden age of training with an unheard of number of top tier trainers with crazy experience (I’m talking tier 1 units), along with top competition shooters, never-mind plenty of solid lesser known options. I’d be shocked if the bad apples outnumbered the good, but if you go to some clown because he’s cheap and down the street that’s on you. You select them same as any other professional.

I bet 90% of the population is within easy driving range of a nationally recognized instructor offering a course any given year.

I would prefer that people train and practice.

I would never set that as a requirement for people to exercise their rights.

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Are there any that can have you kill someone through carelessness or ineptitude?

Voting.