Here is the basement home gym/bar (the bar area still being a Work In Progress):



It appears well-lit in that photo, but, it's not.

What I'd like to do is add three more ceiling fixtures, the same as or similar-to the one you see in the top foreground, more-or-less equally-spaced along the center-line of the ceiling. I'd like them all to be on the same switch. (The ceiling fixture you see in front of the left side of the window in the background is on it's own pull switch.)

It's a sheet rock ceiling, so running NM (aka: "Romex") through the ceiling/floor joists isn't possible without removing ceiling, replacing it, and re-painting the entire thing.

The joists run side-to-side, from the perspective of the above photo, and I do have this along the entire left-hand side:





Would it meet Code to run NM between those joists, using that "runway" in the bottom photo to get from space-to-space, thus having it just laying atop the ceiling between electrical boxes?

Caveats:

1) Not an electrician.

2) Your jurisdiction might not be using the NEC2023.

That said:

1) NM is permitted in concealed work (e.g., inside walls and cavities of masonry, etc.) in normally dry locations. NEC 2023 Section 334.10(A).

2) Normally, NM needs to be supported--meaning secured to the studs every so often, or run through boreholes (boreholes count as support). However, unsupported cables are permitted where the NM is fished through concealed spaces that are otherwise inaccessible. Section 334.30 (B)


So, I think what you are showing is OK, provided that the cables are protected from damage (i.e., nothing inside that space that might vibrate or rub the cable).

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
Caveats:

1) Not an electrician.

2) Your jurisdiction might not be using the NEC2023.

1) Noted 2. They have been using NEC every time I've looked in the past.

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
2) ... However, unsupported cables are permitted where the NM is fished through concealed spaces that are otherwise inaccessible. Section 334.30 (B)

That's funny, in a way. "Do it right unless it's too difficult to do so, in which case you're allowed to cheat.

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
So, I think what you are showing is OK, provided that the cables are protected from damage (i.e., nothing inside that space that might vibrate or rub the cable).

And therein lies a rub (pun intended): While I could conceivably get into the "runway" space shown in the third photo to secure the NM above that cold air return duct, there is at least one run in which access to that space might not be possible.

Having the NM laying literally atop that cold air return duct is probably Prohibited. (If it isn't, it probably should be.)

I suppose I could use 14/2 BX. A lot more expensive, but, probably a lot less trouble.

I presume the BX armor has to be bonded to earth ground at each end. I'll have to find out how that's accomplished using "old work" plastic boxes.

I cannot imagine what ever possessed the moron original owner to put that ceiling in without adding additional ceiling light fixtures

How's your paint and patch skills?

You could conceivably cut a 6 or 7" circular hole between pair of joists with this:

https://www.kleintools.com/cat.../adjustable-hole-saw

Then reach up in there with a power drill and do the boreholes (ensuring there's the proper setback from the ceiling drywall--far enough away where nails can't reach it). With this set up, you might only need to make a few of these holes (hitting two joists with each hole), and then the cutout piece would fit nearly perfectly back in, leaving you to just patch and paint a thin circular line and 3-ish drywall screws per access.

With a flexible auger bit like this: https://www.kleintools.com/cat...r-38-inch-x-54-inch, you might not even need to make more than 1 or 2 access holes besides the 6" holes you'll need for the can lights.

Just fish the wires through with something like this: https://www.kleintools.com/cat...-glow-rod-set-9-foot

And a 90 degree drill chuck might be nice too:

https://www.leevalley.com/en-u...achment?item=46J8203

AND since I'm spending your money, and not mine, a borescope so you can check your progress after each joist and ensure that there's nothing else in there you might hit (plumbing, wires, etc):

https://www.amazon.com/DEPSTEC.../dp/B01MYTHWK4/?th=1

How about something like a Wiremold raceway? This can be surface mounted to the ceiling and run between each fixture. It might not be precisely what you are looking for, but it's not all that apparent when you paint it the same color as the ceiling.

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
How's your paint and patch skills?

Yeah... no. That ceiling hasn't been repainted at least since we've been in the home. There'd be no way to match it.

If I was going to go to that much trouble I'd just cut a swath right down the middle, put four double sets of recessed fixtures in, and repaint the entire ceiling.

quote:

Originally posted by Malicious Compliance:
How about something like a Wiremold raceway?

Thought about that, too. A bit of careful work with a Dremel tool on the side of the lighting fixture and I wouldn't even need to put J-boxes in. (Though I'm almost certain that wouldn't meet code.)

Okay, hear me out.

Surface mount conduit, painted bronze or copper, with some interesting industrial/steampunk looking fixtures with some LED edison style bulbs?

You said it's gonna be a bar too, right? Why not work within the theme?

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
Okay, hear me out.

Surface mount conduit, painted bronze or copper, with some interesting industrial/steampunk looking fixtures with some LED edison style bulbs?

That sounds cool, and I do like industrial/steampunk, but, the ceiling height is only seven feet.

Fixtures like you posted in your followup would be head-bangin' hazards

I'm not adverse to a surface-mounted solution. I'm just not sure conduit or Wiremold entering the side of the fixture, and the wire being hooked right up without the benefit of a J-box would be either code or safe.

quote:

Originally posted by Malicious Compliance:
How about something like a Wiremold raceway?

That was my first thought.

As always, I'll give the dissenting opinion here.
My first thought is that low voltage interior lighting has come a long way. You can "get away" with a lot more code-wise since it's LV. But my direct experience is limited to a closet, but it does well for that purpose, and provides more than enough light.

Hey, add in some Cat5e while you're at it for that security cam or extra TV that you don't think you need yet.

ETA: just remembered my mom has the low voltage track lighting in her kitchen. works well and the tracks are easy to install and you can 'point' the lights where you want.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
Okay, hear me out.

Surface mount conduit, painted bronze or copper, with some interesting industrial/steampunk looking fixtures with some LED edison style bulbs?

That sounds cool, and I do like industrial/steampunk, but, the ceiling height is only seven feet.

Fixtures like you posted in your followup would be head-bangin' hazards

I'm not adverse to a surface-mounted solution. I'm just not sure conduit or Wiremold entering the side of the fixture, and the wire being hooked right up without the benefit of a J-box would be either code or safe.

This one.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/40W...edSellerId=101196060

Anyway, technically speaking, any modification to a light fixture voids the UL rating. But, that's purely from an inspection/liability standpoint. It would certainly fail code compliance. And, if its the cause of a fire, I don't know what insurance's position is on that.

From a safety standpoint, good judgement rules the day. Pay attention to things like protecting the conductor from damage, isolating the conductor from abrasion, supporting the conductor from its own weight, strain relief where necessary, ensuring that all conductor joints are inside of an accessible junction or outlet box, and anything metallic has an uninterruptible path to ground for stray current. Whether you can sleep at night with some EMT or PVC running into the side of a light fixture with conduit-to-box connector bootlegged into it is up to you. In any case, I wouldn't use a dremel to cut a hole in the side of that light fixture. I think a step drill bit would make a more precise hole that could be sized to fit a conduit connector.

Why not run surface mounted LED garage lights that you can link together. You can get them in a variety of Temperatures and some of them are also dimmable. This way you’ll have continuous even light throughout the entire room.

Something like this (although there are many more options…)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod...=A7D51GMQT4BZ7&psc=1

quote:

2) Normally, NM needs to be supported--meaning secured to the studs every so often, or run through boreholes (boreholes count as support). However, unsupported cables are permitted where the NM is fished through concealed spaces that are otherwise inaccessible. Section 334.30 (B)

I have to admit, I didn't read the thread because the first reply has the right answer.

Fished in cables do not need supports. If it's feasible to add them in accessible locations, do so, otherwise, don't.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
I have to admit, I didn't read the thread because the first reply has the right answer.

Fished in cables do not need supports.

Even draped over metal HVAC air returns?

Yes. If there is a possibility of physical damage to the cabling either from pulling it or from sharp metal vibrating when unit turns on or off use common sense. Otherwise strap/staple it where you can. I used to staple entering and exiting bulkheads, but make sure the wire is not taught because you don't want the weight of 30' of wire resting against a staple.

Even in new construction I never stapled the wires in a bulkhead. Unless the wires ran parallel to framing.

The wires running over those boards are supported, so I don’t see what the issue is here. They needn’t be stapled if running across the supports. Even if that ceiling were unfinished, it still wouldn’t need to be stapled.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
Yes. If there is a possibility of physical damage to the cabling either from pulling it or from sharp metal vibrating when unit turns on or off use common sense.

I doubt there's any pulling issue. I've pulled Cat 5 over that same air return w/o issue. Part of that duct was removed and replaced. The only sharp edges I recall were the mating edges, and they're not exposed. I doubt there's appreciable vibration on the part of that ductwork--if any.

So I guess I'm GTG to just going ahead and pulling NM *shrug*

Thanks, Skins ^5

I would use metal clad (MC). Legal to fish it through the area, is safe. Only issue is attaching it to the boxes. If it was me, I would cut holes in the ceiling the size of the boxes, or larger. Finish the electrical and patch the holes. Then paint the ceiling. Not nearly as labor intensive as you think.

The kicker is the 7ft ceiling... I was also going to say conduit to fixtures but you really need recessed with that low ceiling... not up on what this NV is but I'd just figure out how to run Romeex between the joist and use recessed LED's.
I know I might get spanked but securing the wire is not really important in my limited opinion....