SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge Argentinian Navy lost contact with one of its submarines. all presumed dead and ship lost in the abyss(Edited)
Main Page The Lounge Argentinian Navy lost contact with one of its submarines. all presumed dead and ship lost in the abyss(Edited)Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
delicately calloused |
Rest in peace. I hope their families can find solace again. You’re a lying dog-faced pony soldier | |||
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| Live long and prosper  |
It's terrible and a waste of human life. So common and regular. It was a sure bet to say the sub and crew were lost a week ago. But no one had the balls to state the obvius truth. One wonders what was the point of having the sub so far of the coast and if they would have had a chance if they were navigating closer and at more accessible depth. Corruption and pointless military pride must have sealed their submarine tomb but the chain of fatal errors is almost endless. Huge collective institutional failure killed those sailors. 0-0 "OP is a troll" - Flashlightboy, 12/18/20 | |||
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| Member |
That's how Governments work. It's a very sad situation and one that could've been avoided. I would guess that they would've had to take on quite a bit of water to short the batteries. (But a guess is all that is). It sounds to me that the Submarine commander is the one who decided to submerge and push on (but who knows about the push on part or if he had orders to). I'm guessing they submerged because it was rough. My other guess is shortly after they submerged, a battery bank gassed off hydrogen 3 hours after the last contact and it exploded which killed the crew, or it rendered their power useless and the sub hit crush depth and that is the explosion that was heard by the US and everyone in that area. Perhaps they will find the Submarine soon in shallow enough water to determine what happened. I feel horrible for all of the sailors and their families. | |||
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Official Space Nerd |
I don't think it was sure bet that the crew died weeks ago. We just didn't know, and it was the decent thing to do in hoping for the best until the clock ran out on their air supply. We still don't know what happened.
One must train realistically. Thousands of hours are spent by diesel boats far from shore. I don't think anybody had any reason to be concerned about being in deep water. These types of accidents are very rare.
We don't know what the exact chain of errors was. Crew error could have played the critical role here. In WWII, at least one U-boat (out of hundreds lost) was sunk due to somebody misusing the toilet while submerged. Even when they find the boat, we may never know what really caused the accident. Fear God and Dread Nought Admiral of the Fleet Sir Jacky Fisher | |||
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| Member |
One must train realistically. Thousands of hours are spent by diesel boats far from shore. I don't think anybody had any reason to be concerned about being in deep water. These types of accidents are very rare. While I agree with this in a normal situation. NOT after you ingest enough water through the snorkel to short out, have a fire, and have to isolate 2 battery banks rendering them useless. I'm no Submarine Commander, just a simple Yacht Captain. But in that situation, I'd be heading for the first port available, on the surface is possible, and fixing the issues, or at the very least having knowledgable repair people diagnose and confirm that it's ok to sail and submerge. The decision the CO made was more than likely the wrong one given that the Sub is lost. I agree the crew error most likely also contributed. But at this point in the game, it's anybody's guess. | |||
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| Official Space Nerd |
But, they were already far out at sea on patrol when the first 2 battery banks failed, from what it sounds like. I assume the captain would have immediately turned around and headed for home (has this been established yet?). However, they had to charge their batteries (especially since they lost 50% of their battery power), and they normally do this by snorkeling. It sounds like they ingested sea water while snorkeling in rough weather (and it's typical for boats to stay submerged for practically the entire patrol). Without the benefit of hindsight, it's possible the captain made reasonable and valid decisions, not knowing they would lead to loss of his boat. Without knowing the cause of the loss, there is no way to assess whether or not the captain made any critical errors, or if they were just unlucky.
Modern subs (anything after 1950) aren't designed to operate on the surface. They are designed for maximum hydrodynamics underwater. On the surface, they pitch and roll all over the place in anything but placid sea conditions. IMO, no rational submarine captain would choose to surface in bad weather for a long transit home unless there were extreme extenuating circumstances (such as a collision or other event that compromised water-tight integrity). And subs aren't run by committee; nor do they have the benefit of having 24/7 roadside assistance or tech support on call. The crew deals with the situation at hand. If they are over their heads, they can call home. It's very rare for a sub on patrol to need backup. Until any evidence to the contrary surfaces, I'm going to assume the crew knew their boat and handled it adequately. There are MANY 3rd world countries with submarine fleets (North Korea, Iran, Vietnam, Algeria, Chile, etc) that manage to get by just fine the vast majority of the time (not saying they are very good at warfare; but they manage their boats in peacetime just fine). When is the last peacetime submarine loss you can remember? According to Wiki ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...UC3_Nautilus_sinking ), there was only one case of an operational boat suffering the loss of the entire crew (they recovered the sub, but all 70 crewmen died) since 2000.
Again, we don't KNOW that. It's easy to say AFTER a loss that the crew made mistakes, but at the time, they may have been doing everything by the book. It's possible to 'do everything right' and still just be unlucky. It sounds like a freak accident. One can't always anticipate or mitigate against such 1-in-a-million events. Fear God and Dread Nought Admiral of the Fleet Sir Jacky Fisher | |||
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Generally in almost every circumstance where a vessel is lost, human error is one of the causes (not the only cause, but one of the causes). | |||
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| Official Space Nerd |
Not necesarily. USS Thresher was lost due to a pipe fitting failing. There is no indication that the crew did anything wrong. Water shut down the main electrical bus. This loss of power caused the reactor to shut down, leading to near total loss of propulsion power, causing her to sink below crush depth. The prevailing theory on the loss of USS Scorpion was a defective torpedo that ran hot in the tube, overheating and exploding. Kursk was likely lost to another defective torpedo. It is entirely possible for a crew to do nothing wrong and still lose the ship. It is too early to blame the crew for the loss of the San Juan. Fear God and Dread Nought Admiral of the Fleet Sir Jacky Fisher | |||
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| wishing we were congress |
pic of ARA San Juan (from 2014)  | |||
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| Live long and prosper |
The weather is likely the last straw that sealed the subs fate. 0-0 "OP is a troll" - Flashlightboy, 12/18/20 | |||
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| wishing we were congress |
2 updates 1. The Russians have given up the search 2. The lost sub was on a spy mission https://www.washingtonpost.com...m_term=.a5fa2af5b65c Argentina’s navy says Russia has ended its help in the search for an Argentine submarine that disappeared in the South Atlantic with 44 crew members aboard. Russia was the last of more than a dozen foreign countries that assisted in searching some 1,500 square miles (4,000 square kilometers) of the South Atlantic for the ARA San Juan. The multinational search for the submarine employed some of the latest technology in one of the largest efforts of its kind. Argentine Navy spokesman Enrique Balbi confirmed the end of Russia’s collaboration to The Associated Press late Tuesday. He said that that Russia’s Yantar oceanographic research ship will return to the port of Buenos Aires on April 7, and the Argentine ship Islas Malvinas will carry on with the search. xxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...alkland-Islands.html An Argentine submarine that disappeared with 44 crew members on board had been on a spying mission to the Falklands, the country's government has admitted. the government's chief of staff has admitted that the vessel had actually been ordered to the Falkland Islands - which the country calls Malvinas - to identify 'ships and aircraft'. | |||
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Nullus Anxietas |
*sigh* Still not giving up on that, eh?  "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe "If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher | |||
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I think they were a few decades late.....  | |||
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| Lead slingin' Parrot Head  |
Argentina: Submarine found sunk year after disappearing Argentina: Submarine found sunk year after disappearing BUENOS AIRES, Argentina – Argentina's navy announced early Saturday that searchers had found the missing submarine ARA San Juan deep in the Atlantic a year after it disappeared with 44 crewmen aboard. The vessel was detected 800 meters (2,625 feet) deep in waters off the Valdes Peninsula in Argentine Patagonia, the statement said. The navy said a "positive identification" had been made by a remote-operated submersible from the American ship Ocean Infinity, which was hired for the latest search for the missing vessel. The discovery was announced just two days after families of the missing sailors held a commemoration one year after the sub disappeared on Nov. 15, 2017. On Thursday, on the anniversary of the disappearance, President Mauricio Macri said the families of the submariners should not feel alone and delivered an "absolute and non-negotiable commitment" to find "the truth." Macri promised a full investigation after the submarine was lost. Federal police raided naval bases and other buildings last January as part of the probe, soon after the government dismissed the head of the navy. The San Juan was returning to its base in the coastal city of Mar del Plata when contact was lost. Argentina gave up hope of finding survivors after an intense search aided by 18 countries, but the navy has continued searching for the vessel. The German-built diesel-electric TR-1700 class submarine was commissioned in the mid-1980s and was most recently refitted between 2008 and 2014. During the $12 million retrofitting, the vessel was cut in half and had its engines and batteries replaced. Experts said refits can be difficult because they involve integrating systems produced by different manufacturers, and even the tiniest mistake during the cutting phase can put the safety of the ship and crew at risk. The navy said previously the captain reported on Nov. 15 that water entered the snorkel and caused one of the sub's batteries to short-circuit. The captain later communicated that it had been contained. Some hours later, an explosion was detected near the time and place where the San Juan was last heard from. The navy said the blast could have been caused by a "concentration of hydrogen" triggered by the battery problem reported by the captain. | |||
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| Live long and prosper |
TV newscast are all over the story while printed news early this morning had nothing on it, just the echoes of Pdt. Macri's declarations. Sub is said to rest at 800mts depth. No further info as of now. It's a three day weekend end so do not expect anything but speculation until Tuesday or Wednesday. 0-0 "OP is a troll" - Flashlightboy, 12/18/20 | |||
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| wishing we were congress |
 sub is in the upper right of the bigger picture from: https://twitter.com/Armada_Arg The # MinisterioDeDefensa and # ArmadaArgentina inform that on the day of the date, having investigated the point of interest No. 24 reported by Ocean Infinity, through the observation made with an ROV at 800 meters deep, positive identification has been given to # AraSanJuan | |||
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| Oh stewardess, I speak jive.  |
What a terrible way to go. | |||
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| Member |
Are they going to try to salvage it ? | |||
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| Member |
It's possible but, for a country who's economy has been uneven and had a recent currency crises, that might not wise. For comparison, the USS Scorpion sits at 9,800ft (3000m), USS Thresher sits at 8,400ft (2,600m), the Russian sub Kursk which was raised, sat at 350ft. | |||
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| half-genius, half-wit |
I had posted this on the other thread - 0-0 - are you going to make any attempt to recover the crew? I'm betting that there won't be, unless you get assistance from an international consortium. My next bet is that there will shortly be a 'Bring them home' movement. I hope so with all my heart. | |||
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SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge Argentinian Navy lost contact with one of its submarines. all presumed dead and ship lost in the abyss(Edited)
Main Page The Lounge Argentinian Navy lost contact with one of its submarines. all presumed dead and ship lost in the abyss(Edited)© SIGforum 2024