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| Too old to run, too mean to quit! |
At one point in Idaho there was bounty of $135 for coyotes. My brother made a lot of money shooting them around the lambing grounds used by shepherds. And he was not the only one, either. Elk There has never been an occasion where a people gave up their weapons in the interest of peace that didn't end in their massacre. (Louis L'Amour) "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. " -Thomas Jefferson "America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Tocqueville FBHO!!! The Idaho Elk Hunter | |||
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| Doing my best to shape America's youth  |
I'm all about equality- even if the corpse is rotting, the people should be bludgeoned. I am a bit of a suburban fellow, but this just seems like something out of a bad movie. However, being close to Meh-hee-co, if a few hundred of them ended up in a line on the desert...where could we possibly find a suggestion for a line? Clarior Hinc Honos BSA Dad, Cheer Dad | |||
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semi-reformed sailor |
I'm down with shooting them. I dunno about the unattended poison thingy... "Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein “You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020 “A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker | |||
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Essayons |
I have some familiarity with the devices being discussed here. They are produced at a facility in Pocatello, Idaho. Calling them "mines" is inaccurate hyperbole. Older versions used a pistol round primer -- that was the device's only "explosive" component -- to launch the cyanide. Current versions of the device have no explosive whatsoever in them. They use a spring, only a spring, to launch the cyanide. The device does not explode. It is designed to firmly place the cyanide directly into the predator's mouth. The devices each contain less than a gram of cyanide. They also contain dye. The color of the dye tells anyone who wants to know exactly which technician built that individual device. These devices work well in their intended role, which is killing unprotected "nuisance" wildlife like coyotes, skunks, raccoons. The state of Texas uses a lot of these things. Texas buys more of them than all the other states combined. The press coverage of the incident in which the dog was killed in Pocatello is distorted. Hyperbolic. It has an agenda. You should bear that in mind as you read it. Thanks, Sap | |||
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Member |
Sap, Here is what the boy allegedly said to his mother who was quoted in the news report: “Canyon said there was a bang like a bomb, then an explosion of an orange substance that covered him and Casey, who was writhing in pain on the ground before he died right in front of Canyon,” she said. Since you say the article is distorted and hyperbolic, what is the agenda? Who has the agenda? I literally do not know who is pushing an agenda. Is it the anti-cyanide forces of some identifiable group? A mine, to me, is something that is designed to go off when you step on it or hit some sort of tripping device like a beam or wire. I admit, my definition is personal. But, I also say that someone may have an explosive temper, too. Again, I never heard of this issue before I read this thread. Since you know about the devices and motivations, will you provide information on who is pushing an agenda when reporting a boy hurt and a dog killed near their home? Is their a raging dispute somewhere where these are being used for all these decades? Our horses travel with their heads down on wildrerness trails and over open ground with riders or pulling a wagon. Would such a device do a number on one of our horses or people? The sound and cloud would probably turn the wagon into a yard sale all by itself. Is there a place to look to see if any of these are placed on BLM or other land near me? I'm sure others in my area would want to know as well. We have lots of cattle and BLM land around. _______________________________ NRA Life Member NRA Certified Range Safety Officer | |||
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| Essayons |
"Bang like a bomb", when there is no explosive involved, should be a clue. The kid is pissed-off (and I don't blame him) that his dog was killed. He is not telling the truth, though. There couldn't have been a "bang like a bomb". There's nothing in the devices that explodes. Regarding who has the agenda: there are a lot of "environmental" groups that do not like humans trying to control nuisance species. They are happy, overjoyed in fact, when an incident occurs that they can distort and pump to support their agenda. Spend five minutes on Google and you can generate your own list of these. Which specific one? Who knows? Does it matter? You never heard of this issue before because it's a non-issue. Do you really care how many coyotes get poisoned in Idaho? No? Neither do 99% of the population at large. But a nice propaganda puff piece like this "boy's dog murdered by land mine", and "oh my God we're all endangered by poison land mines scattered indiscriminately across the USA!" bullshit made you care a lot real fast, didn't it? See how that works? An unfortunate incident happened, one that shouldn't have happened if the device that killed the dog had been marked as it was supposed to be (and consider this, too: maybe it was marked -- if the boy lied about the device exploding like a bomb, he might have lied about his curiosity motivating him to ignore the signs, too). The boy and his personal tragedy were used to promote an agenda. You, and everybody who responded to the hyperbolic coverage, were played. How do you feel about that? Thanks, Sap | |||
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| Member |
I was writing that while you were responding. I don't feel played. I feel like I'd like to know about this. You expressed some knowledge of the subject. We ride and do other activities near cattle lands and we spent a lot of time in a place starting with "Coyote" as its first name because there are lots of coyotes there. There are even coyote festivals throughout our area. That doesn't keep coyotes from being shot on sight, though. Sap, I'd seriously like to know where the feds are planting these. I thought our problems were bears, coyotes, cougars, rattlesnakes and wild conditions. We worry about other animals and tripping over sharp, hidden lava rocks but these devices, whatever one calls them, just weren't on my radar. We do not have a deliberate treatment for cyanide, whatever that may be, in our first aid supplies. I set up these kits ahead of time because when you are many miles from civilization you need to buy time. By the way, horses are even poisoned by certain grasses and foliage containing cyanide and other acids. Levels and exposure that may not affect a human could poison a horse. Edit: It looks as though successful cyanide treatment for horses is iffy. I guess we would need to carry IV equipment for treatment. That's not impossible but I think I'd like to avoid the problem by knowing where such devices have been deployed. _______________________________ NRA Life Member NRA Certified Range Safety Officer | |||
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Armed and Gregarious |
Now don't go getting facts involved, when people want to rant emotionally. Didn't you know the "MSM" is completely full of "fake news," UNLESS the reader likes the content of the story? https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...0601935/m/3690012124 The irony is just priceless. ___________________________________________ "He was never hindered by any dogma, except the Constitution." - Ty Ross speaking of his grandfather General Barry Goldwater "War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want." - William Tecumseh Sherman | |||
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| Member |
DMF. Did you know lands were set with these cyanide devices before this thread? Your link to the other thread about fake news does not seem appropriate. Here's why: The fact that the cyanide devices are being deployed is undisputed. There is nothing fake about that . . . is there? Do you know of a dispute that a federal cyanide device was involved? Do you say that the boy's injuries were fake? Do you claim that the boy's dog was not killed? Do you have facts, showing that the feds are not using these? Even Sap came into the thread to say that the devices are real, are being deployed and contain spring-loaded cyanide. Fake news is that which is not based on facts. What facts stated above are fake? Who has ranted in this thread? Anyone? Me, I am fond of my loved ones and horses. Asking questions and trying to learn more seems the way threads should go. No? _______________________________ NRA Life Member NRA Certified Range Safety Officer | |||
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| Armed and Gregarious |
Really? You can't see that the linked story in this thread, and the other story, in the thread I linked to, both contain a small amount of truth, wrapped in a huge amount of hyperbole, and nonsense. Yet somehow you think I'm wrong to draw the comparison. Further, the OP in this thread, is also a participant in the other thread. Hence my comment about irony. As for ranting emotionally, we have: "This gubbermint has lost its fucking mind! Planting booby traps where the citizenry works, plays?" "Does the USDA think coyotes can read warning signs?" "Are there signs in bird language, bear language, deer language, bunny language warning every other animal on the planet to stay away? What happens when another animal eats a cyanided dead animal? Does that one get poisoned too? Or maybe just severe liver damage? I thought there was an international ban on use of land mines? Heck this is both a chemical weapon and a land mine, planted on our own soil by our own government. WTF?!?!?" ". . . cyanide land mines????" "Do not care! It is just plain wrong!" ". . . I guess a cyanide landmine . . ." "On Facebook Daniel Craig is doing something to raise awareness on mines used in war and reducing that threat. I never even in a million years thought that this was an issue in the United States." I doubt you, or any of the other ranters, especially those equating these devices with "land mines," even bothered to read the link provided by Icabod.  ___________________________________________ "He was never hindered by any dogma, except the Constitution." - Ty Ross speaking of his grandfather General Barry Goldwater "War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want." - William Tecumseh Sherman | |||
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Coin Sniper |
Let's look at what happened here. FACT: A kid was playing with his dog. They triggered the device, it hurt him and killed the dog. Escalation 1: Mom is hysterical over the injury to her kid and loss of the dog, so things get exaggerated Escalation 2: The media takes creative license with the report from Mom to make it a juicy story for more hits/likes/reads/comments And there you have it.... Pronoun: His Royal Highness and benevolent Majesty of all he surveys 343 - Never Forget Its better to be Pavlov's dog than Schrodinger's cat There are three types of mistakes; Those you learn from, those you suffer from, and those you don't survive. | |||
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| It's pronounced just the way it's spelled |
So cyanide poisoning is such a bad way to die that we can't use it to execute murderers, but it is a humane way to control coyotes? Right. In any event, the amount of cyanide in these traps, per the referenced document and the government's documents on sodium cyanide toxicity is enough to kill a 135 to 176 kilo (298 to 387 pound) human. It can be ingested, inhaled, or absorbed through open wounds. This jibes with what I leaned about cyanide during a metal stripping process. It isn't safe. The kid may have been telling the truth about the bang and no signs. Say this is an old one that has been out there since they used primers. People and domesticated dogs weren't around the area then. So over the years, the signs are weathered, covered, etc. All it would take is one that was missed for removal. I'd like to know where these things are deployed as well. | |||
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| Member |
I am thankful for this thread. I found other instances of other people being injured by these devices. I guess the fact that they are deployed is just not well known. I also talked to other horsemen who had never heard of this but have, between us, been out on trail rides for collectively more than 130 years. Hikers, ATV riders and others have unexpectedly encountered the devices and been injured according to reports. I don't know if the reports are true but there was legal action allegedly involved with some. At least this thread has raised awareness. From what I have been able to find, the devices consist of a tube with a larger tube over the inner tube with a muzzle size catered to a canine. I have not found anything about whether the outer tube could come off to make the device less discriminate. Maybe the article was hyped but after consideration, I would like to have a location map because it still strikes me as akin to a mine field of dangerous materials that are of unknown condition. I have an eye open for rattlesnakes and avoid areas where I am more likely to find them. Some formations give a clue to where you will find them. So, it doesn't seem unreasonable to know where these cyanide devises might be. _______________________________ NRA Life Member NRA Certified Range Safety Officer | |||
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Corgis Rock |
From the manual: There's no "bang." To trigger the device the animal has to tug on the actual capsule. This isn't something with a trip wire and is baited with fetid meat. To trigger this the kid's dog would have had to put its mouth on the trap and tug. This isn't something that "just went off."neither is it like a bobby trap with a trip wired. WS personnel do not use M-44s on any property unless requested by the land’s owner or manager; a valid written cooperative agreement, agreement for control, Memoranda of Agreement, or other applicable document must be in place. The M-44 ejector device consists of four components: a capsule holder wrapped with cloth, wool, or other soft material; a cyanide capsule (small plastic container holding sodium cyanide); a spring-activated ejector; and a 5 to 7 inch stake. In the field, the stake is inserted with the top flush with the ground’s surface. With the ejector cocked and set, the capsule is inserted into its holder and screwed onto the ejector. The ejector is secured into the stake. Specially formulated fetid bait or other scent material, which elicits a “bite and pull” response by the target animal, is smeared on the wrapped capsule holder. In addition to the main product label instructions and directions, EPA mandates 26 use-restrictions, which provide guidance for the application, storage, disposal, and training requirements; safety; and necessary recordkeeping. Individual State pesticide regulatory agencies also can require additional restrictions on the use of M-44s in their jurisdiction. Because of the M-44’s mechanical design, the device is triggered by pulling straight up, which makes it extremely selective for targeted canid. From 1996 to 2006, more than 97 percent of the animals killed by WS’ use of M-44s were target species listed on the product label. The risk of secondary poisoning to scavengers is nonexistent. The M-44’s cyanide powder causes chemical asphyxiation and blocks the use of oxygen in the target animal’s blood. As a result, scavenger animals are not harmed because virtually no poison remains in the tissue of an animal killed by the M-44. “ The work of destruction is quick, easy and exhilarating; the work of creation is slow, laborious and dull. | |||
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| Essayons |
Icabod, another thing that ought to be pointed out: the entity that implaces these devices is required to check them not less than once every seven days. If the signage was down, as the boy asserts, then it couldn't have been down for long. But since the boy lied about the nature of the device's discharge, I'm not inclined to believe anything else the boy says. It's just as likely that the signs were there and the boy ignored them -- if that's so then that doesn't mean he's a bad boy, it just means his curiosity got the better of him, that while he was on somebody else's property he ignored signs that the property owner (or property owner's hired agent) placed warning that there were baited predator traps in the area. Thanks, Sap | |||
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Honky Lips |
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| Member |
Icabod, I read that these devices are also placed on federal land. Do you know whether that is true? As for care, the M44 fact sheet states the following: "All applicators are required to carry an antidote kit when applying or inspecting M-44s." Do you know where such antidote kits are available? If an antidote kit is required for applicators, it seems that the potential danger to humans is recognized. Yes? Again, I am just trying to find out about this device. I asked a dear friend who is a member of our sheriff's Search and Rescue Team and although they are in very rough areas, he has never been told of such devices. _______________________________ NRA Life Member NRA Certified Range Safety Officer | |||
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| Ammoholic |
Maybe my tinfoil hat is too tight, but I am not sure that a readily available map of where these things are located would be a good thing. If one could figure out how to remove the cyanide capsules, one could use the map to collect the capsules from the placed traps... | |||
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| Member |
I agree. It was one of my initial questions/concerns. But, if this stuff is dangerous enough to require applicators or tenders to carry an antidote kit, it seems reasonable to somehow fully warn the public and, at least, make antidote kits known. Again, I am just trying to understand something that came as a complete surprise. _______________________________ NRA Life Member NRA Certified Range Safety Officer | |||
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| Member |
this is an old and a real bad problem. the amount of damage it causes is under reported. here is an example from 2000. it is irresponsible an dangerous. I also agree that a few of those things could be collected and used to settle a score. http://www.hcn.org/issues/174/5628 | |||
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