SIGforum
Looks Like the Thunderbirds are Down One Plane
June 23, 2017, 05:12 PM
nhtagmemberLooks Like the Thunderbirds are Down One Plane
apparently it was flipped over in a storm at the Dayton show...
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/...4T?OCID=ansmsnnews11
[B] Against ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC
June 23, 2017, 05:33 PM
TAllen01Yes, I was following that closely. Glad they are OK.
(I live about 20 minutes away; it was raining cats and dogs today--lots of flood warnings).
Latest: the Thunderbirds will NOT perform tomorrow.
June 23, 2017, 09:11 PM
NavyAgShooterOne plane captain is probably in a world of hurt right now.
June 23, 2017, 09:23 PM
sigmonkeyNah. He's happy the crew walked away.
(no one will see the tears...)
He'll get another jet.
"the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" ✡ Ani Yehudi אני יהודי Le'olam lo shuv לעולם לא שוב! June 24, 2017, 06:10 AM
V-TailLooks to me as if something is missing from the news article. I says that wind gusts were 11 to 17. That's not much at all; even a moderately skilled pilot can handle that in a Cessna 172.
There must have been something else, or maybe the wind was significantly under-reported.
הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים June 24, 2017, 08:04 AM
ulstermanArticle said the plane ran off the end of the runway.
June 24, 2017, 08:21 AM
mikeyspizzaPer CNN, it took over 90 minutes to get the 2 guys out. That's a long time to be sitting there upside down.
Pilot has been released from hospital, maintenance tech still in hospital. Today's performance has been cancelled. Sunday's performance TBD. Per USAF Thunderbirds' facebook page.
June 24, 2017, 08:25 AM
JALLENquote:
Originally posted by mikeyspizza:
Per CNN, it took over 90 minutes to get the 2 guys out. That's a long time to be sitting there upside down. Luckily, looks like minor injuries.
I bet you have to be really careful, and know what you are doing, to not activate the ejection seats.
Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.
When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson
"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown June 24, 2017, 08:28 AM
alreadydeadItem number one on the "Landing upside down" checklist is....
1) Ejection seat safety pin inserted.
__________________________
Keep your rotor in the green
The aircraft in trim
Your time over target short
Make it count
June 24, 2017, 08:30 AM
V-Tailquote:
Originally posted by ulsterman:
Article said the plane ran off the end of the runway.
Respectfully, I have to say that this is not clear. The article actually said "ran off the runway." It does not specify whether it ran off the end, which might have been due to poor braking conditions, hydroplaning on a wet runway, brake failure, landing too fast or too far down the runway, etc.
Another "ran off the runway" condition could be running off to the side due to loss of directional control.
The article did not specify whether the airplane ran off the end, or to the side, it just said "ran off the runway."
In more than fifty years as a flight instructor, I have seen way, way, more airplanes depart the runway to the side, as in loss of directional control, than I have seen running off the end, as in insufficient braking ability.
However, with the winds reported in the article, gusting 11 to 17, I have a hard time believing that a highly experienced pilot would lose directional control due to winds. While this happened to an Air Force pilot, as opposed to a Navy guy who is trained to touch down precisely in order to grab an arresting wire with a tail hook, I still have to believe that an Air Force guy would be able to routinely touch down within + / - 100 feet or so of his target on a runway that is thousands of feet long, so landing long is probably not the cause if he did run off the end. Maybe a mechanical problem (brake failure)? That has happened to me, but my touchdown speed was low enough that I was still able to stop on the runway.
That is why I originally said that it is pretty apparent that we are not getting the whole story.
הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים June 24, 2017, 08:34 AM
RHINOWSOquote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:
quote:
Originally posted by mikeyspizza:
Per CNN, it took over 90 minutes to get the 2 guys out. That's a long time to be sitting there upside down. Luckily, looks like minor injuries.
I bet you have to be really careful, and know what you are doing, to not activate the ejection seats.
Correct. Even when "safed" by the aircrew, you don't want to start banging on portions of the seat.
June 24, 2017, 08:37 AM
JALLENquote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
quote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:
quote:
Originally posted by mikeyspizza:
Per CNN, it took over 90 minutes to get the 2 guys out. That's a long time to be sitting there upside down. Luckily, looks like minor injuries.
I bet you have to be really careful, and know what you are doing, to not activate the ejection seats.
Correct. Even when "safed" by the aircrew, you don't want to start banging on portions of the seat.
Can it be done with the canopy closed and intact?
Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.
When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson
"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown June 24, 2017, 08:44 AM
RHINOWSOYes, ejection seats can be armed / safed separately from the canopy position, but normally are armed only with the canopy in the down position (at least in the Navy).
Even with the seats "safe", some joe banging on the seat without though could possibly fire the seat. A mishap years ago had a 'safed' seat fire a tech into the rafters when he hit something on the back of the seat inadvertently.
Mind you just putting your hands on it wont do it, but pulling, kicking, prying (like in a situation like this) without knowledge of the mechanism could be, ah, very dangerous. So I'm certain that was a consideration for getting the crew out safely.
June 24, 2017, 08:44 AM
MikeinNCquote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:
Can it be done with the canopy closed and intact?
probably not where a pilot can reach the disarm doohicky for the ejection seat, while strapped in and hanging upside down....
"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein
“You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020
“A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker June 24, 2017, 08:47 AM
RHINOWSOThe aircrew "safe / arm' levers are close and able to be actuated by them strapped into the seat.
But more permanent ways of safing the seat completely are not, nor would an aircrew typically know how to do it, unless they were a seat tech previously.
June 24, 2017, 09:12 AM
slosigquote:
Originally posted by mikeyspizza:
Per CNN, it took over 90 minutes to get the 2 guys out. That's a long time to be sitting there upside down.
Pilot has been released from hospital, maintenance tech still in hospital. Today's performance has been cancelled. Sunday's performance TBD. Per USAF Thunderbirds' facebook page.
I always wonder when you have a maintenance tech in the airplane. Are you just giving a good buddy a ride, or are you trying to demonstrate an issue you can't figure out on the ground...
June 24, 2017, 09:31 AM
ulstermanquote:
Originally posted by V-Tail:
quote:
Originally posted by ulsterman:
Article said the plane ran off the end of the runway.
Respectfully, I have to say that this is not clear. The article actually said "ran off the runway." It does not specify whether it ran off the end, which might have been due to poor braking conditions, hydroplaning on a wet runway, brake failure, landing too fast or too far down the runway, etc.
Another "ran off the runway" condition could be running off to the side due to loss of directional control.
The article did not specify whether the airplane ran off the end, or to the side, it just said "ran off the runway."
In more than fifty years as a flight instructor, I have seen way, way, more airplanes depart the runway to the side, as in loss of directional control, than I have seen running off the end, as in insufficient braking ability.
However, with the winds reported in the article, gusting 11 to 17, I have a hard time believing that a highly experienced pilot would lose directional control due to winds. While this happened to an Air Force pilot, as opposed to a Navy guy who is trained to touch down precisely in order to grab an arresting wire with a tail hook, I still have to believe that an Air Force guy would be able to routinely touch down within + / - 100 feet or so of his target on a runway that is thousands of feet long, so landing long is probably not the cause if he did run off the end. Maybe a mechanical problem (brake failure)? That has happened to me, but my touchdown speed was low enough that I was still able to stop on the runway.
That is why I originally said that it is pretty apparent that we are not getting the whole story.
While I defer to your experience, let me say this. Demonstration flight crews (Blue Angels, Thunderbirds, etc) preach safety. If there any doubt those planes could get up and down safely due to the conditions, they probably wouldn't have been flying. I've never investigated a plane crash but many auto/truck accidents. I would best guess this as a "failure to maintain control" due to conditions, mechanical failure, etc.
June 24, 2017, 09:55 AM
RHINOWSO
"It was raining, and I was taking pictures of some airplanes," he said. "The plane was taxing and it flipped. Right away the fire department personnel was running toward the accident." " http://www.daytondailynews.com...ial_twitter_2014_sfpThe photos don't give a good top down view, so it's hard to figure out exactly on the airport, but it seems to have happened on the taxi back. The concrete looks slick and the photos immediately after show mist / rain, so either taxiing too fast for conditions and the planes braking system was unable to stop them from leaving the paved taxiway, or some sort of antiskid or steering malfunction, or a combination of the two.
Photo immediately after it happened.
The plane obviously had some speed on it when it left the pavement to flip that drastically. From the pictures the main landing gear is down and locked, can't see the nosegear with all the stuff in the way - although it was probably torn off, as the nose gear door is open. Lots of grass on the nose and intake.
Glad they are alright. Looking at the nose of the plane, it isn't gonna buff out.
June 24, 2017, 10:06 AM
newtoSig765Just saw RHINOWSO's pics. There goes my theory that they were trying to save a $1 million+ canopy replacement!
--------------------------
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
-- H L Mencken
I always prefer reality when I can figure out what it is.
-- JALLEN 10/18/18
June 24, 2017, 10:09 AM
ulstermanquote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
" Ricardo von Puttkammer, chief correspondent for Aviation Photojournal, was out in the air field when he witnessed the two-seat Thunderbird taxi on the runway toward the staging area.
"It was raining, and I was taking pictures of some airplanes," he said. "The plane was taxing and it flipped. Right away the fire department personnel was running toward the accident." " http://www.daytondailynews.com...ial_twitter_2014_sfpThe photos don't give a good top down view, so it's hard to figure out exactly on the airport, but it seems to have happened on the taxi back. The concrete looks slick and the photos immediately after show mist / rain, so either taxiing too fast for conditions and the planes braking system was unable to stop them from leaving the paved taxiway, or some sort of antiskid or steering malfunction, or a combination of the two.
Photo immediately after it happened.
The plane obviously had some speed on it when it left the pavement to flip that drastically. From the pictures the main landing gear is down and locked, can't see the nosegear with all the stuff in the way - although it was probably torn off, as the nose gear door is open. Lots of grass on the nose and intake.
Glad they are alright. Looking at the nose of the plane, it isn't gonna buff out.
Top Pic: Was the plane headed L/R, R/L, Download/Top?