quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
but just be in fear....

Being in fear isn’t sufficient. It must be a reasonable fear of death or serious injury based on the facts and circumstances. That seems unlikely at this point, but there’s still not enough information available to the public to know whether that was the situation.

Exactly.

And about him not being charged yet, it is still within the realm of explanation, with no regard to his job title. Sometimes investigations take time, especially when the suspect won't talk. Once they charge him, the clock is up. They need to have their ducks in a row.

quote:

when immigrants to this country were actually checked out before they got here

Is this really true? When, by whom, and to what extent? What evidence is there of this?

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:

And about him not being charged yet, it is still within the realm of explanation, with no regard to his job title. Sometimes investigations take time, especially when the suspect won't talk. Once they charge him, the clock is up. They need to have their ducks in a row.

I think that's exactly what's happening here. Based on the little information I've heard so far, I'd be really shocked if he isn't charged. However, I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't happen until after the new year...

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:And about him not being charged yet, it is still within the realm of explanation, with no regard to his job title. Sometimes investigations take time, especially when the suspect won't talk. Once they charge him, the clock is up. They need to have their ducks in a row.

Chongo (and other LE),

I'm sure it's tough to describe a "typical" scenario, but what is the ratio of immediate arrest/incarceration vs letting the shooter go on his way? Let's say the shooting took place in the shooter's home or place of business and the deceased is not a relative or employee.

quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:And about him not being charged yet, it is still within the realm of explanation, with no regard to his job title. Sometimes investigations take time, especially when the suspect won't talk. Once they charge him, the clock is up. They need to have their ducks in a row.

Chongo (and other LE),

I'm sure it's tough to describe a "typical" scenario, but what is the ratio of immediate arrest/incarceration vs letting the shooter go on his way? Let's say the shooting took place in the shooter's home or place of business and the deceased is not a relative or employee.

That depends entirely on the details. And two cases that are exactly the same can go to different ways based on certain factors.

If you are specifically hinting at a self defense case, I have never seen anyone arrested on the spot in what appeared to be a legitimate self-defense case. They were commonly asked to give a statement, but even their refusal based on the advice of their attorney at the time did not result in an unseen arrest.

I'll clarify that even more, I have never personally seen anyone arrested at all for what appeared to be a legitimate self-defense act. And I'm talking taxpaying citizens in their homes, and gang bangers in a shootout in the street at 2am.

^^^

I honestly just don't see how this case could've possibly been seen as a reasonable self defense scenario had it involved just two citizens.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
^^^

I honestly just don't see how this case could've possibly been seen as a reasonable self defense scenario had it involved just two citizens.

Me either. But we have very little actual info. I was just answering a general question.

Thanks. Good to hear.

I guess I wasn't presuming self defense as an absolute condition, but rather that the shooter was not someplace he shouldn't have been and the details were unclear.

I think that could be said of Noor as well as the situations I described. Totally different scenario than the shooter is in someone else's house or place of business.

I doubt like heck that Noor's shooting will be found justifiable, but the fact that he is free does not seem to be inconsistent with your experience with non-LE shooters.

We do indeed have very little info. The silence is deafening.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
^^^

I honestly just don't see how this case could've possibly been seen as a reasonable self defense scenario had it involved just two citizens.

I posted this local story earlier in the thread. A case where a man shot his ex-wife's boyfriend in the Walmart parking lot. He was released initially:
http://www.knoxnews.com/story/...n-walmart/101033452/

He was charged and taken into custody about a month later:
http://www.knoxnews.com/story/...ed-murder/330551001/

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:

quote:

when immigrants to this country were actually checked out before they got here

Is this really true? When, by whom, and to what extent? What evidence is there of this?

A big segment of my family came from Denmark in the 1850's as a result of Mormon missionary work in Scandinavia.
Because this was well documented, to include details when the immigrants got to Ellis Island, then made a land trek to Utah, I have seen nothing to indicate investigations as to their worthiness once here.
There were cursory health inspections and pretty good records kept, and the Scandinavian practice of being named for your father and that being you last name was apparently nipped in the bud then and there. The officials there deemed that system way too complicated to contend with in the new nation, so they froze the names in place, but were not officious about it according to accounts.
But, as to in depth criminal or character investigations, I have seen no evidence in the many accounts I have read of the people coming off the ships into the United States throughout that period.
I suspect, though I don't know for sure, that any real effort to stop movement of truly known bad people would have to had happened on the other end, although you also cannot expect the Danish popo having had long term problems with Lars and Peder for years to raise too much hell when he found out they were trying to move thousands of miles away,lol.

My immigrant forefather (my 5x-Great-Grandfather) arrived in 1720 from Scotland via Ireland, but being that it was 56 years before the Declaration of Independence there weren't any such checks in place back then that I've heard of, and I simply don't know how it worked in the many years in between way back at the beginnings of this country and now.

Perhaps post WWI or WWII, and/or Cold War eras?

quote:

Originally posted by H&K-Guy:

Well, IANAL, but it seems there is PC, and maybe even reasonable suspicion to believe a murder occurred. In the very least, a homicide. If I shot someone dead, would I be walking around free? Somehow I don't think that would happen. Due process or no.

H&K-Guy

It's not PC bullshit.
There are rules that have to be followed.
If the DA has the cop or anyone charged the clock starts then...there are limits to when he can be arraigned, when he has a trial etc...the labs might not be done by then and they couldn't be entered into evidence.

Also if the DA charges him with something and then later finds that a different charge would have been better they may not be able to re-charge him as it might be a lesser included charge of the first one...and the guy goes free...

And then there might be something like I've seen where the guy is charged with 2nd degree attempt murder....but guess what? there is no statute for 2nd degree attempted murder in NC...and then the DA looks like an ass and the guy gets off when the first thing the guy's lawyer tells the jury that the DA fucked it up from the start and is just on a witchhunt.....and the guy walks

Relax. HE will be charged.

(I'm not saying I'm on the side of the cop-cause I'm not-I just wanted to explain the why it's taking so long for charges)

http://alphanewsmn.com/candida...-past-felony-charge/

Front-runner of the Minneapolis mayoral race, State Rep. Raymond Dehn’s personal history has some members of the community scratching their heads over Dehn’s latest comments on police.

In 1976, when Dehn was 19-years-old, he was arrested and convicted of armed robbery. According to the site turtleroad.org, Dehn is quoted as saying he got involved with cocaine and “needed money to support his habit.”

Dehn was later pardoned by former Minnesota Gov. Al Quie in 1982 and had his record expunged

Dehn:

“Crime is not a product of individual morality but the consequence of scarcity in our society,” Dehn said in a press release. “We must divest resources, disarm officers, and dismantle the inherent violence of our criminal justice system which continues to uphold white supremacy. Our approach to public safety must reflect a belief that our communities are safer when they have housing, clean air and water, access to education and employment, and quality healthcare.”

On Saturday, Dehn backtracked on his statements after receiving criticism by clarifying, “I support demilitarization of our forces. I support rethinking whether every officer needs to carry a gun. I believe public safety will be best served if fewer officers carry guns…I am not advocating against officers having access to a gun in situations– such as when encountering a deadly weapon –where they need to be armed to keep themselves and others safe.”

****************

this is like watching Texas hold'em on TV. It is a lot easier when you know what everybody's cards are.

^^^^^ Wow. Dehn. Knowing Minnesota, he's probably going to be voted in, too. I long to bask in the warmth that is his wisdom.

Don't you guys understand? Cops with guns is bad, MmmKay?

H&K-Guy

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:

quote:

when immigrants to this country were actually checked out before they got here

Is this really true? When, by whom, and to what extent? What evidence is there of this?

What evidence is there? Check into the immigration requirements for several decades prior to obummer.

Personal experience: When I married Mrs. Elk, in Germany while I was in the army, it took NINE MONTHS to get the investigation of her eligibility to migrate to the USA. And that was in 1958.

Check out Ellis Island for starters.

quote:

Originally posted by sdy:....“Crime is not a product of individual morality but the consequence of scarcity in our society,” Dehn said in a press release. “We must divest resources, disarm officers, and dismantle the inherent violence of our criminal justice system which continues to uphold white supremacy. Our approach to public safety must reflect a belief that our communities are safer when they have housing, clean air and water, access to education and employment, and quality healthcare.”...

So if I commit a crime, it is society's fault, not mine. And the solution to crime is to give people housing, water, education, jobs, healthcare (he didn't mention food); plus eliminate white supremacy (in CA the term white supremacy usually connects to white males = founders = Constitution.)

Seems the only way the gov't can give people everything they want is to first take everything they have, including their freedom. How else is the gov't going to pay for all the food, clothing, shelter, education, healthcare that they give away other than forced labor, ie, slavery?

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:

quote:

Originally posted by H&K-Guy:

Well, IANAL, but it seems there is PC, and maybe even reasonable suspicion to believe a murder occurred. In the very least, a homicide. If I shot someone dead, would I be walking around free? Somehow I don't think that would happen. Due process or no.

H&K-Guy

It's not PC bullshit.
There are rules that have to be followed.
If the DA has the cop or anyone charged the clock starts then...there are limits to when he can be arraigned, when he has a trial etc...the labs might not be done by then and they couldn't be entered into evidence.

Also if the DA charges him with something and then later finds that a different charge would have been better they may not be able to re-charge him as it might be a lesser included charge of the first one...and the guy goes free...

And then there might be something like I've seen where the guy is charged with 2nd degree attempt murder....but guess what? there is no statute for 2nd degree attempted murder in NC...and then the DA looks like an ass and the guy gets off when the first thing the guy's lawyer tells the jury that the DA fucked it up from the start and is just on a witchhunt.....and the guy walks

Relax. HE will be charged.

(I'm not saying I'm on the side of the cop-cause I'm not-I just wanted to explain the why it's taking so long for charges)

Exactly. It's chess, not checkers.

People are persons of interest or outright murder suspects all the time and walking around free until the evidence is gathered and evaluated. "Who done its" are rarer than "Bobby Joe shot him, now how do we prove he meant to kill him it beyond a reasonable doubt, and convince a jury".

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:

quote:

Originally posted by H&K-Guy:

Well, IANAL, but it seems there is PC, and maybe even reasonable suspicion to believe a murder occurred. In the very least, a homicide. If I shot someone dead, would I be walking around free? Somehow I don't think that would happen. Due process or no.

H&K-Guy

It's not PC bullshit.
There are rules that have to be followed.
If the DA has the cop or anyone charged the clock starts then...there are limits to when he can be arraigned, when he has a trial etc...the labs might not be done by then and they couldn't be entered into evidence.

Also if the DA charges him with something and then later finds that a different charge would have been better they may not be able to re-charge him as it might be a lesser included charge of the first one...and the guy goes free...

And then there might be something like I've seen where the guy is charged with 2nd degree attempt murder....but guess what? there is no statute for 2nd degree attempted murder in NC...and then the DA looks like an ass and the guy gets off when the first thing the guy's lawyer tells the jury that the DA fucked it up from the start and is just on a witchhunt.....and the guy walks

Relax. HE will be charged.

(I'm not saying I'm on the side of the cop-cause I'm not-I just wanted to explain the why it's taking so long for charges)

Exactly. It's chess, not checkers.

People are persons of interest or outright murder suspects all the time and walking around free until the evidence is gathered and evaluated. "Who done its" are rarer than "Bobby Joe shot him, now how do we prove he meant to kill him it beyond a reasonable doubt, and convince a jury".

I concur. Otherwise you end up in a situation like the original O.J. trial...going into trial without being fully prepared

Sometimes I take things for granted as being commonly known, I forget that sometimes it needs to be spelled out for folks who aren't "in the business"

quote:

Originally posted by H&K-Guy:
^^^^^ Wow. Dehn. Knowing Minnesota, he's probably going to be voted in, too.

Since you "know Minnesota", you obviously realize that it is a state that is split dang near 50/50. Minneapolis is a typical liberal big city. They will elect another liberal mayor, but no need to generalize.