I am not a financial genius by any means. But on a mortgage simple interest is not simple interest. It is front loaded. That is why on a 30 yr. mortgage you are making an almost all interest monthly payment for about the first 7-10 years.

So tell us again that this project is going to be a total outlay of $12k cash for you.

I go round and round with my wife about this. She’s very very conservative financially. We bought our house in SD after retirement with a big mortgage. Now we’ve lowered the rate to 3.125% (without needing to refi!); and that’s still tax-deductible. We have rental houses and stocks in tax-deferred accounts; that’s how I’d rather have my money than paying off mortgage.
And yes we put in solar, will pay for itself in 4 years given CA’s high electric rates.

quote:

Originally posted by sjtill:
I go round and round with my wife about this. She’s very very conservative financially. We bought our house in SD after retirement with a big mortgage. Now we’ve lowered the rate to 3.125% (without needing to refi!); and that’s still tax-deductible. We have rental houses and stocks in tax-deferred accounts; that’s how I’d rather have my money than paying off mortgage.
And yes we put in solar, will pay for itself in 4 years given CA’s high electric rates.

It depends how you look at it. With no debt, you can weather just about any financial storm. Each debt account you have weakens your staying power in a recession, job loss, health issue. Without any debt payments, think of all of the cash each month that was tied up paying those monthly payments, AND if you're disciplined, how fast you could sock it away or buy income producing property or invest it. Really easy to be nimble and grow, when your backpack is empty.

And yes, mortgage interest is front loaded. Most people only end up paying mostly interest (and little principle) and then refinance or buy a different house and start the process over again.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
I am not a financial genius by any means. But on a mortgage simple interest is not simple interest. It is front loaded. That is why on a 30 yr. mortgage you are making an almost all interest monthly payment for about the first 7-10 years.

So tell us again that this project is going to be a total outlay of $12k cash for you.

Right, repaying a fixed amount over a fixed period of time means more of your payment is going to interest at the front.

My example calculation would be like paying $12k cash at the beginning of the loan or simply taking $12k less of a loan out--your $12k on day one of the mortgage is worth $7,400 in overall interest saved. It's the most favorable way to calculate it.

Your $12k cash payment in the middle of your mortgage would be worth even less.

I have fairly high confidence that my project will be $12k plus tax to install. Why wouldn't it? It's not a bid or an estimate. It's a purchase contract for 24 panels, installed, for a fixed dollar amount. I was advised at the beginning that if my electrical panel or roof needed repairs, there would be costs, but I have had their installers here and they've had an opportunity to inspect everything and everything is good to go except for the roof. I do not count the additional roof repair costs because my roof is in need of repair, and that is not the solar panels fault. If anything, I'm fairly glad they got up there and took a look at the underlayment and identified potential problems for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
I am not a financial genius by any means. But on a mortgage simple interest is not simple interest. It is front loaded. That is why on a 30 yr. mortgage you are making an almost all interest monthly payment for about the first 7-10 years.

So tell us again that this project is going to be a total outlay of $12k cash for you.

Right, repaying a fixed amount over a fixed period of time means more of your payment is going to interest at the front.

My example calculation would be like paying $12k cash at the beginning of the loan or simply taking $12k less of a loan out--your $12k on day one of the mortgage is worth $7,400 in overall interest saved. It's the most favorable way to calculate it.

Your $12k cash payment in the middle of your mortgage would be worth even less.

I have fairly high confidence that my project will be $12k plus tax to install. Why wouldn't it? It's not a bid or an estimate. It's a purchase contract for 24 panels, installed, for a fixed dollar amount. I was advised at the beginning that if my electrical panel or roof needed repairs, there would be costs, but I have had their installers here and they've had an opportunity to inspect everything and everything is good to go except for the roof. I do not count the additional roof repair costs because my roof is in need of repair, and that is not the solar panels fault. If anything, I'm fairly glad they got up there and took a look at the underlayment and identified potential problems for me.

To make the equation fair, you'd have to also include part of the re-roof cost into it as well, since your existing roof would probably go another 5-10 years before leaking and you have to do it early to install the panels.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
To make the equation fair, you'd have to also include part of the re-roof cost into it as well, since your existing roof would probably go another 5-10 years before leaking and you have to do it early to install the panels.

I get what you are saying, but it appears that there may already be water damage in that portion of the roof. One of the roofing bids said so, but I don't 100% trust it.

The question then becomes, were it not for solar, would I have paid to lift and relay just a patch of the roof, or would I have done that whole section (hip to hip) of the roof. Or, do I even trust the roofer that says the roof is damaged.

Another (completely separate) way to look at it is, assuming I stay in this house 20 years, I would have had to replaced the roof at some point. So, repair the roof now in year 1, or repair the roof at year 15, it makes no difference, I'm only out the cost of the single roof repair. Being in the real estate biz, having a "new" roof doesn't increase the value of your house by much, so having a 5 year old roof or a 15 year old roof doesn't make much difference. But, of course, I may not stay here for 20 years. Maybe only 10. Then it becomes a question if a 30 year roof on a 30 year house becomes a problem when I try to sell it.

In any case, back to the time value of money thing.

Sure, if we count the roof and solar together as the same cost, then $19k would be the starting point. $19k thrown at the mortgage in the most favorable way would save you $11,715 over 30 years. Solar still saves you $54,000. All simple interest, no compounding (because, as previously indicated, compounding favors the solar calculation).

Right, I get that we all twist things to fit the narrative we wish to live in or are interested in perusing.

I am with you A in a skeptical thought process about the roof.

If the roof will need done at some point. They want you to have it done now. Probably by someone they are associated with. But if you would have done it 15 years from now. You could of taken the $25k and invested it for 15 years and probably could of paid for the roof fours times over in that period of time. Using your logic of course
Another reason I would not embark on such a scam.

I am out

ORC, I don't understand why this has to be some sort of scam to you.

It's an appliance that produces electricity, not a timeshare.

People should be perfectly capable of calculating the cost of the system and their anticipated savings over a period of time. For some people, it works out and they save a bunch of money. For other people, the panels cost too much where they live, or they don't get enough sun, or their city power is already plenty cheap, or they don't plan on living in the house long enough to recoup their investment.

Install done. Generally looks pretty good - clean install. I have some concerns about how well they sealed the hole through the roof for the electrical wiring (I guess I'll check it in the attic when it rains) and a missing tile they said was missing from the beginning (but I can see remnants of tile nail and glue). No biggie, I can get that replaced easily; wouldn't want them to fix it anyway.

The only other thing is that they left a lot of body grease / sweat on the panels. It's expected since it's been hot. But shouldn't they have cleaned it quickly while placing the panels? Just would have taken 1 min per panel.

I guess it won't damage the panels. Nor really affect efficacy. But it just doesn't look nice. Hopefully the sun and rain will clean it off eventually? Or should I have them clean it up now?

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
Install done. Generally looks pretty good - clean install. I have some concerns about how well they sealed the hole through the roof for the electrical wiring (I guess I'll check it in the attic when it rains) and a missing tile they said was missing from the beginning (but I can see remnants of tile nail and glue). No biggie, I can get that replaced easily; wouldn't want them to fix it anyway.

The only other thing is that they left a lot of body grease / sweat on the panels. It's expected since it's been hot. But shouldn't they have cleaned it quickly while placing the panels? Just would have taken 1 min per panel.

I guess it won't damage the panels. Nor really affect efficacy. But it just doesn't look nice. Hopefully the sun and rain will clean it off eventually? Or should I have them clean it up now?

Congrats! I would think the cleaner the better.

Solar seems to be working. Bill reduced from $300-400 to ~$20. Not sure how this net metering works still, but as long as I'm just paying some compulsory amount, it's good. Just need to figure out if additional credits are due. Panels are pretty dirty from regional fires I think; hope rain will clean up it.

Dang....got mine last year and went with panasonic panels. I did my due diligence and had at least 3 vendors compete with each other.

I feel good about my purchase especially with the higher tax credit from last year.

Would have been interesting to see if Tesla would have beat my quote.

Welcome to the club!

If it’s not raining and the sky is relatively clear, I’m already generating summer levels of power. At true up, I think I’ll end up with a lot of power generated going to waste (at least not financially beneficial to me).

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
If it’s not raining and the sky is relatively clear, I’m already generating summer levels of power. At true up, I think I’ll end up with a lot of power generated going to waste (at least not financially beneficial to me).

Sounds like you need an electric car

Lol. I’ve got the money saved. But talking to a friend, seems like the out the door cost is higher than I was thinking - cheapest sounds like about $40k. Still may be beneficial vs the alternative over 10 year TCO. But need to recalculate things. No rush now. Sounds like the state might be closed for another 6+ months still.

Maybe induction stove top? Do they make induction hot water heaters?

I wonder if the meter will show negative numbers. I think it’ll be wound back to zero by august.

I jumped way ahead on this and have not read in between.

Is there anyway to get Tesla panels and other components with out the install. I'm confident I could do the installation with the switching and connection to the grid and such myself.

So, finally got my solar panels installed. Final city permit inspection on Monday, then just gotta wait for the power company to OK the whole shebang.

Hate to break it to you Old Rugged Cross, but the whole project was done without any changes to the purchase contract. My out the door will be $12,141 plus the cost of the city permit after the 26% federal tax credit.

My roof was actually in need of repair. After pulling the tiles and the underlayment, it appears that a slow leak had rotted out a grapefruit sized hole in the decking. So, glad we got that taken care of and I don't feel so bad about having needed to pull and replace the felt underlayment.

All in all, Tesla was good to work with. Only 4 weeks to install once we took care of the roof---they held my project open for almost a year for me while we sat on the fence about the roof.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Aeteocles,

Nice. Finally. Do you have one bank all facing the same direction? Or banks facing different directions? I have two banks at about 90 degrees to each other. South and west. Not sure if it’s better to all face one direction or not but limited by roof anyway. I’m about net positive 1500 kwhr at about 8-9 months. No issues at all other than the app only shows generation for me; for other people, they see consumption as well.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: konata88,

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
Nice. Finally. Do you have one bank all facing the same direction? Or banks facing different directions? I have to banks at about 90 degrees to each other. South and west. Not sure if it’s better to all face one direction or not but limited by roof anyway. I’m about meet positive 1500 kwhr at about 8-9 months. No issues at all other than the app only shows generation for me; for other people, they see consumption as well.

Sounds like your arrangement is near optimal.

I've got 14 panels facing southeast and 10 panels facing southwest. According to the installers, this is "pretty good". Because my panels don't all face the same way, I will not ever hit the theoretical maximum of 8.16kw. The sun can't hit all the panels with optimal angle at the same time. I'm generating a peak of 7.4 at around 11:30am today. However, the flip side is that I'm generating more power for a greater portion of the day with the panels arranged this way--my southeastern panels pick up the morning sun and I'm generating 2kwh by 7:30 am and my southwestern panels are generating until the sun sets.

Here, "optimal" would be to have your panels facing south and southwest due to our Time of Use billing. Power is $.43 a kwh between 4pm and 9pm on weekdays during the summer. Having some panels facing southwest to catch the late afternoon sun will offset power usage when it's most expensive--but south would theoretically give you the highest per panel output.

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
I jumped way ahead on this and have not read in between.

Is there anyway to get Tesla panels and other components with out the install. I'm confident I could do the installation with the switching and connection to the grid and such myself.

Tesla's regular panel installs use non-tesla branded equipment. Tesla bought SolarCity, so this is essentially the SolarCity operations under Tesla ownership. My Panels are Hanwha Q-Cells.