We should send in Hey Macarena as Ambassador with a one-way ticket.

God forbid we would become militarily involved, but we always have and always will have a strategic interest in the goings on in our hemisphere.

Publicly, no troops and we respect and support the right of the citizens of Venezuela to choose their own government.

Privately, we have an asset on every street corner in Caracas helping to steer the mob and light off the occasional firecracker if need be.

We should stay FAR away.
The citizens made there socialist bed years ago, let them sleep in it.
The commies have had a foothold there for decades, let them have it, we don't want it!

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
I'm glad you said it, 0-0, rather than me. I knew it, but a norteamericano saying it, even if it's true and it's not out of racism, nationalism or any other -ism, comes across as belittling.

There´s no denying some facts (unless you´re a hardened (US) Democrat?)

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
Latin America has a Catch-22 problem: The people are electing poor leaders because of how poorly-educated and poorly-informed they are.

It´s a huge mistake to believe entire nations have chosen their "elected" reps. Most times there´s no alternatives. Even if you have long lists of candidates. Most are simply not viable.
The Soviets didn´t elect their leaders, no more than the Chinese did. The lack of education is, IMO, the original sin. But on top of that there are many circumstances that pile up.
The Catholic Church held a lot of political power in Latin America until the last century, not unlikely - in some aspects - to the current dictatorships in some countries. Carismatic leaders and backing military power, financial power, religious power are crucial parts of the terrible equation. Poverty and lack of education and opportunities do the rest.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
It is to the advantage of those "leaders" to keep their constituencies poorly-educated and poorly-informed so they can stay in power to their own advantage. Thus the never-ending cycle.

Word.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
The "course correction" of which I speak, btw, isn't one to the left, right, center or whatever, but to getting our education system back to the business of educating and our "news" media back to informing of facts. The rest will take care of itself.

Amen!

0-0

Excellent post, O-O.

Didn't Hugo Chavez have an AK factory built during his reign? I remember that he gave out thousands of them to his people to ward off the upcoming invasion by the US. That could make any kind of intervention a real nightmarel

Just no. Please no way should we become militarily involved. We are not World Police.

quote:

Originally posted by fiasconva:
Didn't Hugo Chavez have an AK factory built during his reign? I remember that he gave out thousands of them to his people to ward off the upcoming invasion by the US. That could make any kind of intervention a real nightmarel

Complete with their own domestically-produced red dots (PK-A Venezuela, apparently not quite as good as the Russkies') and a Makarov pistol factory to go with it.

Could it make an intervention a nightmare? Sure, if we're strictly talking about a US invasion. OTOH, that's a healthy local supply of rifles that might fall into the hands of people opposed to Maduro.

I just hope his people see the light and get rid of Maduro on their own. That whole crap hole of a country isn't worth one American troop's life.

quote:

Originally posted by 0-0:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
Latin America has a Catch-22 problem: The people are electing poor leaders because of how poorly-educated and poorly-informed they are.

It´s a huge mistake to believe entire nations have chosen their "elected" reps.

*nod* Of that I'm well aware. I didn't want to make my post any longer than it was already, so I took a bit of literary license with the reality on the ground. Nonetheless: Your correction is welcome--and you probably stated it better and more succinctly than could have I had I attempted it.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog7972:

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:

quote:

Originally posted by KevinCW:
Why would this be our problem.

To keep Russia, China, Iran, and Cuba out of there.

I agree. We are not talking about Iraq or Afghanistan. This is too close to us to let the commies get a foorhold or even a takeover.

Toss in 3 little letters, and you're 100% right.

O
I
L

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:

You do realize that the majority of countries South of the Rio Grande are either openly anti-US or, have a seathing undercurrent of Marxism/socialism; that foothold has been available for quite some time. Over half the political parties at play in most of those countries, to varying degrees, are openly hostile to the US. The radicals with the most fiery messages get elected, their economy tanks because of their poor education/perspective and the cycle repeats itself. Supposed allies like Russian/China kick-tires, realize that morons are in-charge, population is largely limited to menial labor and/or, understand the distance and investment needed to establish a presence, isn't worth it.

US involvement simply stays as is: politically engaged to support our allies, who are the directly in the line-of-fire while maintaining assets operating out of Aruba & Curacao with the Dutch, Antigua/Barbuda, and Colombia

True, they hate us. But they LOVE the US Dollar! All that American money that gets tossed down there in the form of "Aid"... They love that shit!

Nature abhors a vacuum. Someone will get control of that country. If it's not us, it will be the Chinese or Russians. Do we want to allow that?

I’ve mentioned this a few times, but my family is from there, and I grew up in Caracas before moving back to the US.

First off, I’m opposed to a US military (boots on the ground) intervention, but wouldn’t mind some targeted cruise missiles and other standoff engagements to cripple the Venezuelan military capabilities (to be fully reimbursed by the rightful Venezuelan government after stabilization).

I believe many/most of my fellow forum members are operating under the premise that Venezuela = Central America, and that is definitely not the case. From the level of education, to wealth, to stability (pre-Chavez/Maduro), Venezuela was a stable country since 1958, and by far the wealthiest Latin American nation on a per capita basis.

As mentioned before, Chavez “won” with narrow majority of the vote, by promising free government handouts, clinics, etc to the ~50-60% of the population that was still quite poor. Since that initial election, all further ones have been absolutely corrupt and rigged.

This isn’t El Salvador/Guatemala or even (apologies, 0-0) Argentina, countries that have had either severe stability issues, monetary problems, or leftist governments in power for decades.

I’m fairly confident that once Maduro is removed, Venezuela will rapidly return to it’s pre-Chavez affluence. Look at Colombia, and how FARC/drug wars nearly destroyed that country, and see it today. Right now, 3 million+ Venezuelans are in the rest of LatAm, the US, and Europe, many in well paying white collar roles, as the level of education in Venezuela is (and remains) quite high, for those with access to it.

The main challenge after this will be to ensure the population is educated, has access to opportunities, and rejects leftism at all costs. The latter, of course, will be the most difficult.

Edit: I’ve never seen ANY widespread hate for the US in Venezuela. The American influence there dates back to the 1920’s, it’s the only South American country that plays baseball, for example. Again, I think y’all are confusing it for other countries

Edit #2: CPD SIG, Venezuela (prior to this week) has not received any aid from the United States since the 1960’s, and in fact has been a contributor of aid in general. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...ign_aid_to_Venezuela

My expertise on Venezuela stems from the fact that my Uber driver in Houston on Sunday was from there. So I pretty much know everything there is to know. Based on that sample size of 1, I can categorically state that Venezuelans support U.S. intervention. Or in her words, "I hope Mr. Trump does something soon."

I still don't think we need to be militarily involved though.

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:...

First off, I’m opposed to a US military (boots on the ground) intervention, but wouldn’t mind some targeted cruise missiles and other standoff engagements to cripple the Venezuelan military capabilities (to be fully reimbursed by the rightful Venezuelan government after stabilization)....

Primavera Española?

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
This should be doable without sending US troops in. Covert and/or contract forces might be necessary.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:

quote:

Originally posted by KevinCW:
Why would this be our problem.

To keep Russia, China, Iran, and Cuba out of there.

We've plenty of socialist/communist in our midst. I'm not as concerned about communist in mexico and south.

Its not good but we can't deal with our in border issues I'm not interested in helping the idiots in Venezuela. Like others have said they voted them in.

I'm not in favor of helping any lazy screwed up types out.. In this country or elsewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
This isn’t El Salvador/Guatemala or even (apologies, 0-0) Argentina, countries that have had either severe stability issues, monetary problems, or leftist governments in power for decades.

I’m fairly confident that once Maduro is removed, Venezuela will rapidly return to it’s pre-Chavez affluence. Look at Colombia, and how FARC/drug wars nearly destroyed that country, and see it today. Right now, 3 million+ Venezuelans are in the rest of LatAm, the US, and Europe, many in well paying white collar roles, as the level of education in Venezuela is (and remains) quite high, for those with access to it.

The main challenge after this will be to ensure the population is educated, has access to opportunities, and rejects leftism at all costs. The latter, of course, will be the most difficult.

Edit: I’ve never seen ANY widespread hate for the US in Venezuela. The American influence there dates back to the 1920’s, it’s the only South American country that plays baseball, for example. Again, I think y’all are confusing it for other countries

Edit #2: CPD SIG, Venezuela (prior to this week) has not received any aid from the United States since the 1960’s, and in fact has been a contributor of aid in general. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...ign_aid_to_Venezuela

Hope so, you're quite optimistic, keep the faith, you should be commended during these tough times.
VE is in danger of a 'brain drain' the departure or, out-right killing of its educated and merchant classes, a problem that Afghanistan, Syria, Lebanon, multiple African countries, etc have experienced. It's that middle-class segment that can help patch together a country ravaged by mis-management. Hopefully, there's enough of that group still left to be central in its recovery.
Until then, the people hopefully will see the errors in whom they elected and backed, while the military leadership pulls it's collective head-out and sees the light

Just Coopt the Genralismos and let them remove that ass from power