How are they calculating the $5 a week savings in the summer? My understanding of a heat problem mp is it’s the same as an AC for cooling.

Can't speak to the Great White North, but here in the mid-Atlantic it can get into single digits occasionally. We had our heat pumps replaced two years ago. Upstairs unit is a 23 SEER and downstairs an 18 with gas furnace backup. The old system needed the gas furnace as the 20-year-old heat pumps could not produce enough heat on the really cold nights.

New system is radically improved. When the gas furnace is running (rarely) the warm air from the registers feels to my hand just as warm as that from the upstairs unit running on heat pump only (no emergency heat).

In addition to saving on propane costs during the heating season my electric bills are down significantly during heating and cooling seasons.

The only downside is the cost of the two systems was twice that of my first house.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:

quote:

Originally posted by Pyker:

quote:

What did your hvac guy say?

He recommended it, they install them quite often according to him.

Thinking you may want to get a couple more quotes. Not sure I would use this guy.

The cartoon character says:

I'm not an HVAC guy, but I'm going to condemn an actual, local HVAC guy for the mere reason of suggesting the use of a HP in a cold climate. Even though, I'm really not sure how well a HP will or will not work in a cold climate.
Further, I don't know the local utility rates to be able to figure an operational cost analysis.

But hey, them HP's sure work well in warmer climates!

Come to think about, all other refrigerated operated equipment seems to work well up north (in cold climates) as well, hummmmm.... it's magical.

On another note: I've heard them there high efficient furnaces cause all sorts of trouble because they have so many more complicated controls in them, so skip all the savings and stick with paying high gas bills with an 80 percenter. Or skip the convenience of gas and go straight to a wood fireplace.

*Please catch my next show... cartoon character out.

I have a heat pump and there are times in So. Az. that it is marginal on heating my house. We don't usually experience really cold weather here.

https://thefederalist.com/2014...-death-of-expertise/


Excam/Skins/Stlhead - Thank you for your expert advice provided in all the recent HVAC and electrical threads.

I hope you don't end up getting run off by the pontificators, like what we unfortunately saw with ApplianceBrad.

I'm sure the technology has improved, but my experience with Heat Pumps in relatively mild winters in Texas made me swear off heat pumps forever. I get the potential cost savings, but when it's cold outside I don't want to worry about heat. I want to set the thermostat where I want it and have that temp in short order. Even if it costs a few bucks more. Same goes for cooling. I'm not getting any younger and little creature comforts are important to me and my wife.

Speaking of comics. It is comical that of all the threads in the SF where members are asking for advice and opinions. It is the only topic where a member (who is an expert) gets his feelings hurt when others chime in who want to offer their point of view on the subject discussed. Gets old excam man. And as I have said. I respect your knowledge and expertise and many times have steered people to you for advice.

So just try relax when it comes to these threads. As a nurse friend of mine said one time. "No one is going to die." Especially discussing this topic here.

Deleted:

This message has been edited. Last edited by: old rugged cross,

Since you're clearly going to be more concerned with heating than cooling, it probably wouldn't hurt to familiarize yourself with the way heat pumps are rated.

The much bandied about term of SEER(Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio), which refers to cooling efficiency and energy consumption. The less well known brother of SEER is HSPF(Heating Seasonal Performance Factor), which is the rating used to express heating efficiency.

Both of those ratings are being supplanted by newer DOE standard ratings SEER2 and HSPF2.

In either case, when comparing quotes and all other things being equal, the higher the SEER or HSPF the better/cheaper to operate the unit will be respectively.

ORC, leave me out of this please.

Hello Pyker, consider a hybrid system. Gas heat with a heat pump. Heat pump technology has advanced greatly and they are maintaining the heat output at colder temps by increasing the compressor speeds. Considering where you are, I'd stick with a 90+ gas furnace. The electrical upgrade to support adequate electric / Aux heat is a cost to consider by going all electric. Contact a couple of more reputable well established HVAC contractors for their opinions and pricing. There will always be argument about ROI. I'd stick with the best warranty from the installer. Also, going all heat pump with electric heat will also need a larger generator for power outages.

I replaced my HVAC last year with heat pumps, and I'm also on propane.

Significant savings. In a typical year we would use roughly 1,100 gallons of propane. Last year we used 500-600.

I'm not questioning, or even offering an opinion, as to whether ORC's posts are accurate, or relevant based on currently available modern design Heat Pumps, but he's NOT the only one who responded with an opinion based on experience garnered from outdated HP technology. That said, in his defense, all of his posts/opinions on the subject (solicited by the OP in an open forum) were posted BEFORE any of our resident SIGforum subject matter experts in the field posted in this thread.

Honestly, people are gonna respond with opinions here when they're solicited if they think they have some relevant experience. As long as everybody stays in their lane, doesn't offer wildly inaccurate info, or worse speculation, AND doesn't challenge the technical expertise/professional opinions of our subject matter experts, we'll all get along just fine here.

quote:

Originally posted by hvactech:
Hello Pyker, consider a hybrid system. Gas heat with a heat pump. Heat pump technology has advanced greatly and they are maintaining the heat output at colder temps by increasing the compressor speeds. Considering where you are, I'd stick with a 90+ gas furnace. The electrical upgrade to support adequate electric / Aux heat is a cost to consider by going all electric. Contact a couple of more reputable well established HVAC contractors for their opinions and pricing. There will always be argument about ROI. I'd stick with the best warranty from the installer. Also, going all heat pump with electric heat will also need a larger generator for power outages.

This what I'm leaning towards atm. An air source HP for cooling and heating with the furnace as an auxiliary assist. I think that I may get the best of both worlds with a high SEER/HSPF HP and my existing 95 or 98% furnace.

25 years ago a hybrid system created a huge warranty expense for a major HVAC OEM. It was a builder's idea, to take advantage of heat pump benefits while still having a furnace. So, if you hybridizing, use modern integrated systems to avoid potential problems.

Heat pumps, in years past, were always higher warranty cost for the compressor. Nowadays, with Scroll compressors, the failure modes caused by heat pumps would not exist. So, you should be good if you require a Scroll compressor.

[And, as people may wonder why I comment thusly, I was the warranty analysis manager for a compressor manufacturer, as well as a compressor designer.]

Thank you everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
Speaking of comics. It is comical that of all the threads in the SF where members are asking for advice and opinions. It is the only topic where a member (who is an expert) gets his feelings hurt when others chime in who want to offer their point of view on the subject discussed. Gets old excam man. And as I have said. I respect your knowledge and expertise and many times have steered people to you for advice.

Dramatize much, give me a break...
My feelings are quite in tack, as is my thinking.

Offering advice or better yet, experience is one thing. Posting "Not sure I would use this guy" is completely uncalled for given your lack of knowledge on HVAC and no background on his local HVAC professional.

You don't respect shit, especially when it comes to me, or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

What's really funny, is you come here for advice with damn near every daily decision you have to make, but are first (a whole 8 minutes after the original post) to offer advice on a subject you are not qualified in answering. Then question the very professionals in which you claim to respect.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
So just try relax when it comes to these threads. As a nurse friend of mine said one time. "No one is going to die." Especially discussing this topic here.

I remember someone once saying "if you don't know, shut up and listen to the people who do, you might learn something".

Good points here. In Iowa and currently having a somewhat old gas furnace with AC outside, I'd likely look at doing the same. A hybrid system with a heat pump and gas furnace may show the best ROI based on initial and ongoing costs.

Along that same line, a hybrid water heater may be a next step as well. They're more complex and cost is higher, but with lower ongoing cost it may make sense.

It's funny, really. We have a refrigerator and freezer that are heat pumps that dump warm air into the house, then we may soon have a water heater that takes dumps cold air into the house. Can I just get a single heat pump that provides cooling and heating for all of those? Maybe add some redundancy so if something fails it would keep running cooling or heating until it was fixed. Two heat pumps instead five sounds more reasonable.

[quote]What's really funny, is you come here for advice with damn near every daily decision you have to make,

Not quite, but do come here for advice regularly as I greatly appreciate the vast knowledge base here and those who are willing to share.

I never profess to be a know it all like yourself. Or take offense if someone has greater knowledge than I do on a subject. Which is pretty much always the case.

If you went back and looked at threads on this subject you would see that I respect your opinion and expertise and have said so.

For whatever reason you have got butt hurt. Sorry about that. As best as i can recall I have never disrespected you personally here.

I will leave it there. I hope you have a good night.

There is a company called Artic Heat Pumps that claims they’re good down to -15 degrees. Not sure about efficiency. We have a three year old heat pump that helps tremendously in cooling in warm weather and heating in spring and fall. When it approaches 20 degrees, we shut it down. We have an oil boiler and pellet stove for Vermont winters.
Our humidity has been running in the mid to upper 80’s for the last several weeks outside, and inside we have been holding in the 50’s. Temp outside in the mid 80’s to mid 90’s, and inside set for 76 degrees.
My opinion is the efficiency was originally overrated.
One neat thing about heat pumps are they run on low pretty much all the time compared to other types. They’re quiet, and it’s amazing how comfortable our home is. We have a 28X46 log cabin. Full open basement, and one 12,000 heat pump. The basement is 69 degrees with low humidity. Without it this time of year it would be humid, warm, and stuffy.
Would I rely on just heat pumps? Nope. But they have their place.

I have 2 Daikin heat pump split systems at my home. A 3-ton (4-head) and 1.5-ton (1-head), both rated to -15 degrees. They worked well over 2 PA (Pocono Mtn.) winters. I have a 98% gas furnace as primary heat that I actually don't use if it's over 40 degrees. When my furnace gas value broke in Jan 2023 these provided good heat for 2 weeks until furnace could be repaired. I'm not sure which heating system is more efficient. Work great in summer on auto and are a fantastic replacement for our old Mitsu. Mr.Slim.