I’m on an overnight and went to a local burrito place. They had an announcement outside the door about Martha, a 24-year employee that is retiring 23-DEC. I expressed my congratulations to her and wished her well and good blessings in retirement. I also commented that good help is hard to find…both she and the owner agreed.

We need way more Marthas in this country!!

That fact that you can't take the bar exam without graduating from an accredited program is a significant barrier. I'm not aware of any Bar that has accredited an online program.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
Interesting, but I think he greatly over estimates the barriers licensing imposes. Passing the bar is an irritation, not a serious barrier to competently practicing law - I do think returning to an apprenticeship requirement for law would make sense.

Very few engineers are licensed, yet there’s also a shortage of them.

If he is referring to prohibiting law from being outsourced, I can’t imagine a competent person hiring Indians or Nigerians to be lawyers.

As some here know I retired August 1st from a career with Ohios Dept. Of Rehabilitation & Corrections at the age of 52.
My pension & VA Disability is more than I need to live on even with the way I like to buy toys.
Most of my co-workers that have retired are around 55 & all have decided they’re fine not working & have no plans to work again.
I can’t help but think of all the money being left on the table by not working.
After three months of enjoying being retired I got a bit bored as my social world got small since most my age are still working.
While I have no desire to go back into that field of work I did just start a fantastic job at a very nice assisted living center driving the residents to & from their medical appointments around the state.
No union , private owned facility & wonderful people.
All of my pay is going into investments for when I actually quit working.

*edit*
I too have no idea how people make it either not working or working intermittently and actually think they’re ever going to have enough put aside to retire at a standard most day dream of when they think of retirement.

Once I decided to get a job I applied to 3 listings got 2 interviews & two job offers , one was a State job (retire -rehire) with the DODD.
Is sitting around the house fun?
Yeah for a bit, but collecting a full unreduced pension & a full time pay check results in me having an excess of money which is much more satisfying to me.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GrumpyBiker,

quote:

There's good points on both sides of the argument.

Sure, there are a lot of worthless, entitled, employees. They can ruin a job for the good workers.

But, for a while, there were lots of companies that screwed over their good employees and "killed the mood" so to speak

KevinCW brings up a very good point in the second paragraph, companies screwing over the employees.
My full time vocation preretirement was as a auto dealership parts counterman. Nine years, two official compensation “adjustments” and a few “here and there” little tweaks, so basically the last three years no loss, no gain. But always admonished to “work harder, you’ll make more money”. Sure and once we did, it’s time to evaluate those plans again.

Was t any better when I was in management in he 70’s and 80’s. They just find more creative ways to screw you. Net profit bonus for management is one. Dealer says “ Help me keep expenses down and you’ll make more money.” Sure, then one month you see on your department’s P&L statement a 3k charge for “Travel, Training and Associated Expenses” and you know there was zero expense that month. You go to the office manager to ask and she says “The dealer went on vacation with his wife to see their daughter, you paid for it!”

Or one of the sons takes a new Conversion Van off the lot at midnight, half drunk with three of his buddies in tow, Security Guard let’s him take it because it’s the dealers kid. Kid rolls it over in a ditch. Dealer doesn’t want to turn it in to insurance, kid’s done this before, he’s an adult. So dealer just expenses this out to all departments then the following month starts all over us because as managers we are not doing enough to keep expenses down!

Lastly,I went in there as part of a team as the dealer said he wanted to improve the store, it had a bad reputation for many reasons. My team and myself increased customer foot traffic, built a wholesale business where there was none before, improved inventory turns and reduced obsolescence and improved profits all with the net reduction of one person in the department. So just before my third year anniversary and just after the service manager’s third anniversary he “rewards us” by slashing our pay packages 33% in the name of making us on par with other dealers in his Twenty Group. That is a roundtable discussion group sponsored by the National Auto Dealers Association, they set up groups of twenty dealers similarly sized to “explore” ways to increase their profits.

I left once we sold our home, made some calls and had three offers for employment, took me a bit over a month to accomplish that. And the dealer could not understand why I didn’t stay. He seriously told me this face to face, saying that I was giving up an opportunity!

TMK, you can read for the bar in… VA? And, truthfully, if you’re reasonably intelligent, and take BARBRI, you can probably pass the Bar - but I wouldn’t suggest trying it, unless it’s just for giggles. (I don’t think many people do read for the bar)

If you could apprentice, and there were still more general practice lawyers, it could work, but I’m not sure how well people would do as a lawyer/how you’d have any idea of what you’d like to practice, without law school.

Law school is a bit surreal, and bizarre, and very irrelevant, except when it’s not irrelevant at all. (Essentially, it’s a few years of focused reading of cases and statutes, with some trade skill courses thrown in)

I had some useless classes, because the profs were useless, but aside from my jurisprudence courses (I was a bit of a nerd), I can’t think of any ones I took which did not directly pertain to the practice of law.

Relevant article on reading for the bar.

https://www.pilotonline.com/ne...ahns6z33m-story.html

I totally get wanting a career that matters. I certainly do.

My first career was the military. They were focused more on people's sexuality than actually winning any wars. The only outcomes were my wasted youth and the Taliban ending up better equipped than when the war started.

Now, I am a public school teacher by day and raise cattle by night. I work hard, trying to make interesting lessons and connect with the kids. I even started an aviation program at my school this year in an effort to link kids with local aviation jobs. (Our airbase has civilian contract maintenance, and they are dying for people.) One thing I can always count on is that there is no shortage of people that shit on me for being a teacher.

Note that the only time we were closed for COVID was mandated by the State Dept of Education. The only other times we have been virtual were in the 21-22 school year. Once was Board-mandated, and once or twice was for inclement weather. Talk to my bosses. I was there every time the door was open.

As to the vo-tech comment, I have NEVER pushed college as the only answer. Our state has a top-in-the-nation vo-tech system. One of their secrets, IMO, is that they will kick you to the curb in a heartbeat if you are not employable. Your performance reflects on them, and if you can't show up on time and do what you're supposed to do, you're not going to drag them and everyone else down.

But, yeah, I would love a job that matters. It wasn't for lack of trying.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Herknav,

Teachers are like lawyers, it’s 90% which make the rest look bad

quote:

Originally posted by Herknav:
I totally get wanting a career that matters. I certainly do.

My first career was the military. They were focused more on people's sexuality than actually winning any wars. The only outcomes were my wasted youth and the Taliban ending up better equipped than when the war started.

Now, I am a public school teacher by day and raise cattle by night. I work hard, trying to make interesting lessons and connect with the kids. I even started an aviation program at my school this year in an effort to link kids with local aviation jobs. (Our airbase has civilian contract maintenance, and they are dying for people.) One thing I can always count on is that there is no shortage of people that shit on me for being a teacher.

Note that the only time we were closed for COVID was mandated by the State Dept of Education. The only other times we have been virtual were in the 21-22 school year. Once was Board-mandated, and once or twice was for inclement weather. Talk to my bosses. I was there every time the door was open.

As to the vo-tech comment, I have NEVER pushed college as the only answer. Our state has a top-in-the-nation vo-tech system. One of their secrets, IMO, is that they will kick you to the curb in a heartbeat if you are not employable. Your performance reflects on them, and if you can't show up on time and do what you're supposed to do, you're not going to drag them and everyone else down.

But, yeah, I would love a job that matters. It wasn't for lack of trying.

I do too, but there are TONS of careers that matter way more than the younger generation thinks.

They can come do mine with me. Hell, I'm making nearly triple what I made when I started this endeavor of LE 14 years ago.

When I started I competed with a couple hundred (literally) people for JUST ONE opening. We got a whopping 36k a year. It took me nearly 1.5 years to get hired on. They did an EXTENSIVE background check and were VERY selective.

Now, it's more.

But WE CANNOT FIND PEOPLE. We used to require at bare min an associates degree or active military service, and that was the bare min. Realistically, you had no shot unless you had 2 years active duty, 5 years reserves, or a bachelors degree.

Over the time I've been here, we've lowered it and lowered it. Now, you ONLY NEED A GED!!!!! And to pass a background check, which lots can't do. And pass the bare min PT test, which is a joke. It wasn't when I started.

We are, and have been, about 100 officers short (and we only have a budgeted amount of 900 or so) and we CAN NOT find people to do this job.

Officers top out at 90k per year, plus overtime, plus benefits, plus pension, plus education pay.

We probably couldn't kidnap people off the street and make them do this job for that right now.

We have officers, not of rank, just at PO rank, making 130k to 140k with overtime.

We can't GIVE the money away.

All the money in the world isn’t worth the repercussions of a druggie in your care doing the fentanyl finisher on video.

quote:

Originally posted by KevinCW:
.........{snip}........ when I started this endeavor of LE 14 years ago.

When I started I competed with a couple hundred (literally) people for JUST ONE opening. We got a whopping 36k a year. It took me nearly 1.5 years to get hired on. They did an EXTENSIVE background check and were VERY selective.

14 years ago.

I remember a certain thread on this forum where you were giving us updates on the progress, and very nervous about it. The seasoned LEO members were providing specific advice, and we were all rooting for you.

I guess now you are one of the seasoned LEO members here

KevinCW,

I attended our city's civilian PD academy this spring. We are budgeted for 100 officers, and we're running about 75 +/-. The Chief says he's not lowering standards. I am happy to say one of my former students got on with them, and he's kicking butt by all accounts.

I also remember your entry into the profession. Has it been that long?

quote:

Originally posted by eyrich:
That fact that you can't take the bar exam without graduating from an accredited program is a significant barrier. I'm not aware of any Bar that has accredited an online program.

St. Mary’s University School of Law has the first ABA-accredited fully online law school, as of the Fall 2022 semester. And there are at least ten other ABA-accredited law school programs that are a hybrid of online classes and a few evening/weekend in person classes.


Beyond that, seven states allow people to attempt the bar exam without graduating from law school at all, via a legal apprenticeship ("reading the law") in lieu of schooling: Washington, Vermont, California, Virginia, Wyoming, New York, and Maine. The first four states require no law school, while the latter three require attending at least the first year of law school.


And California in particular also specifically allows graduates of non-accredited law schools to attempt their bar even without a legal apprenticeship, provided they passed a precursor FYLSX exam during their time at the non-accredited school. The relevant CA rules specifically allow for distance learning (online schooling) if going this route.

Most other states (33 of 50) will then allow graduates of non-accredited law schools to attempt their bar exams if the applicant has been practicing law in another state for a period of time, typically 3-5 years.

So one could pass the CA bar after graduating from an unaccredited law school and practice in CA for several years, and then attempt other states' bars. Thus, someone sufficiently motivated could end up passing the bar and practicing law in most states eventually, despite graduating from an unaccredited program.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RogueJSK,

Ya know…

I used to scoff at the Starbucks Baristas who cried about working too hard and wanted to form unions…something happened to me at work the other day that caused me to rethink my position…

Ultimately, the staffing, food cost and labor goals, not to mention the speed-of-service drive thru goals are typically near unachievable, and can only be met under the best of conditions.

Starbucks continues to add more programs, (bring your own cup) without adjustment to the store labor or speed-of-service goals…I worked this industry for the better part of 15 years and I feel and understand their pain.

Starbucks was the golden ticket at one point, like so many companies (Talking to you Apple), they began to believe their own press and lost what made them magical.

Too bad really, but I understand.

https://www.wdio.com/front-pag...arbucks-to-unionize/

Quote:
Many of those jobs were exported long ago to cheaper labor markets such as China.

While that certainly is a big reason many jobs left the US the US EPA regulations was just as much, maybe more, the reason so much of manufacturing left.

quote:

Originally posted by gjgalligan:
Quote:
Many of those jobs were exported long ago to cheaper labor markets such as China.

While that certainly is a big reason many jobs left the US the US EPA regulations was just as much, maybe more, the reason so much of manufacturing left.

Absolutely correct. What many don't realize is that the place XYZ was offshored to, continues to use the chemicals and production processes that the EPA/OSHA was all up their ass about to begin with.

I have hired and fired more than a couple of entitled software engineers that wanted sr. level money on hiring. It's easy to get rid of them, give them a problem to solve that requires sr. level skills. When they can't do it... bye, bye. Where I have had the best luck is hiring ex military. Most have a can-do attitude, take constructive criticism well, and strive to improve. Most have been money driven which is fine. What I am reading now about military personnel does not bode well for my theory. Marines seem to be the exception to that statement. Time will tell.

No one owns what I know, only me.
And I'll train who I deem a productive fit not someone who will cost less.
I played this game last week when I rejected a candidate I was presented with, then ordered to train. And how it would be beneficial in the future. Beneficial to whom?
I held to my principals and refused.
This person would have been an unproductive liability.

Technician on evening shift. Girlfriend in apartment across the street. Office phone forwarded to girlfriend's apartment. Tech caught. Promoted into management.

Service Reps can't meet objectives selling calling features to customers calling because customer can't pay current billing. Service Reps add features to callers phone, get the numbers up, and then delete features before billing date
Management doesn't care because they met the numbers and management gets bonus.

Management believe customers love the company service because the numbers.

My problem is opposite. I love /hate my job but they pay me too much to quit. If I could make what I make driving a truck or waiting table or working at a gun shop I’d switch. I’ve been salary for most of my professional job life and working extra when required or even taking calls nights and weekends was just expected. We’d be rewarded at bonus and raise time. My division is a subsidiary of a mega too big to fail bank and my new colleagues are almost all hourly and their attitude of “ lmy shift ends at 5pm when we have work to get done and home buyers are relying on x so they can clear a contingency has left many of us puzzled. We also have found out they all make significantly less than us.