Kevin, IMO the most effective safety device that could be installed in an automobile would be a powered 14 inch spike in the center of the steering column. Then folks would actually learn that driving is an activity that requires your full attention, not that smidgen you are willing to give up from your texting.

Note, by "you" I mean it in general semantic terms, I am NOT even hinting that you are one of those fools who text and drive. However as someone who walks for exercise in the summers I am still shocked by how many people see nothing wrong with texting and driving as long as they keep the phone out of the line of sight of a police car going by. Based on what I've seen on my walks a full 70% of the drivers under 30 are texting nearly 100% of the time while driving.

I'll also note that cars didn't have seat belts until I was 10 years old and there were several generations of people who preceded me who drove an rode in cars without any restraint at all. Heck, my grandfathers cars didn't even have Safety Glass. Oddly enough folks survived riding in those antiques but that was a time when you didn't do anything to distract the driver from his primary task.

quote:

Originally posted by Scoutmaster:
I don't know how many hundreds of miles we kids logged in the bed of an open pickup truck. Sometimes we sat on the open tail gate going down the road. Had zero injuries.

Yeah we did all kinds of stuff with no problems when I was a kid. Lot less safety stuff too - no airbags, less attention to crumple zones, etc. Back then we didn't know better and we didn't have the government wiping our backsides for us. It was a different world. I don't expect we'll ever get it back.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

quote:

Originally posted by Scoutmaster:
I don't know how many hundreds of miles we kids logged in the bed of an open pickup truck. Sometimes we sat on the open tail gate going down the road. Had zero injuries.

Yeah we did all kinds of stuff with no problems when I was a kid. Lot less safety stuff too - no airbags, less attention to crumple zones, etc. Back then we didn't know better and we didn't have the government wiping our backsides for us. It was a different world. I don't expect we'll ever get it back.

You hit on a good point. I am not against safety and personal responsibility. Seems to me the more we depend on gov't to take care of us, the more irresponsible we get, and the more control the gov't has over our daily lives.

Alot of good points made already, so I'll just add this. As a parent, I would gladly give up my own life for the sake of my child. Why in the hell did one of those adults take up a front seat with a seatbelt and make thier child sit on the floor? Not that I would ever be in this situation to begin with, but as a hypothetical I would make sure every kid had a safe seat before I did.

The 13 year old isn't the only one at risk - in an accident she becomes a weapon that is sure to contribute to injury/death of the other occupants. Physics, it hurts.

In the interest of "perspective", when seat belts came into use and people still had kids rolling around in the bed of the pickup, realize that in many cases it took 10 years to put 100K on a vehicle, the population was 1/2 what it is now, and speeds were not typically 60-80 for as much travelled roads, more like 30-40 were average speeds and 50 was tops except on interstate (that was finished).

So, yes, to some degree "we all survived", but there were a lot who didn't and are not here to tell us to be careful, before anyone is too quick to think the killjoys are simply meddling busybodies.


And I will grant anyone who has had to deal with the carnage the first right of refusal in any such argument.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

quote:

Originally posted by Scoutmaster:
I don't know how many hundreds of miles we kids logged in the bed of an open pickup truck. Sometimes we sat on the open tail gate going down the road. Had zero injuries.

Yeah we did all kinds of stuff with no problems when I was a kid. Lot less safety stuff too - no airbags, less attention to crumple zones, etc. Back then we didn't know better and we didn't have the government wiping our backsides for us. It was a different world. I don't expect we'll ever get it back.

Flip side of the coin is that back then, you didn't shoot your cousin in the eye with a BB gun playing BB gun wars, and then your parents sue the company because they sold a product capable of putting out an eye without this or that inscribed on the side.

Sadly, when you live in a county that the government does want more power, and lobbyists that attempt to reduce their liability and the payouts of whoever they are lobbying for, this is what you get.

I'm not saying you should...

But...


I would talk to them about this and tell them they need to buy a bigger car


And if it continued I would call CPS on them

I can tell you if this family presented to the pediatric practice I own and I found this out I, as an obligate reporter, would call CPS

This is clearly a dangerous situation.


Of course, I don't particularly like my sister...so maybe I'm more prone to make the call than others

Well, there are fewer motor vehicle deaths now than there were 20 years ago, despite many more miles driven. Mostly due to seat belts, air bags, and crash-resistant car technology, NOT better driving or better roads.
Just as we don't tolerate a car that's pumping out black smoke, we don't tolerate life-threatening behavior by parents with regard to their children in cars.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
In the interest of "perspective", when seat belts came into use and people still had kids rolling around in the bed of the pickup, realize that in many cases it took 10 years to put 100K on a vehicle, the population was 1/2 what it is now, and speeds were not typically 60-80 for as much travelled roads, more like 30-40 were average speeds and 50 was tops except on interstate (that was finished).

So, yes, to some degree "we all survived", but there were a lot who didn't and are not here to tell us to be careful, before anyone is too quick to think the killjoys are simply meddling busybodies.


And I will grant anyone who has had to deal with the carnage the first right of refusal in any such argument.

My Great Grandfather used to drive my Dad and his Sister to Tampa in his big Marmon 6 and when I asked my dad how long that drive from Cincinnati took he stated not much longer than today. When I asked how my dad stated his grandfather used to cruise at 70 mph and if some local cop tried to chase him down he'd take that Marmon up to 90 and outrun that cop. BTW, back in the 20's Marmon was one of the fastest cars on the road and it was the first American auto to feature hydraulic brakes.

To put it simply don't assume that cars "way back then" couldn't get over 50 mph. Louis Chevrolet got his start by building a line of Frontenac cylinder heads for the Ford Model T and with the top of the line 4 valve per cylinder overhead cam head installed a "Fronty Ford" could hit 75-80 mph back around 1915. Actually a rather scary thought considering the T featured wooden spoked wheels and the factory brake was a band style friction brake on the rear axle. There is also the 1930 Stutz Bearcat with it's 303 cubic inch, double overhead cam, 4 valve per cylinder Straight 8 with a curb weight of about 2000 lbs.

I grew up in that day, most cars took ten years to get to 100k, and many cars that made it to that point ended up in junk yards.

Most roads and speeds were as I stated. I saw a great deal of this country's interstates being finished, having traveled from New England, through the Midwest to California and back about four or five times, and twice from the north west to the Midwest.

I saw the time before seat belts to the present. From a time where people were able to drink while driving, and many things.

All of what I said was true.

A few instances of people driving fast was specific to a few areas and a few cars.

Things have changed, and my whole point, was that the comparison is not apples to apples, but much greater differences than similarities.

Because the response was directly related to the continued claim I have heard many times about "...we rode in the back of pickups and did not wear seatbelts and we all lived...", to reiterate that there are a great number of people who are not hear today because they died in accidents to refute the claim by those who survived.

The number of miles driven has gone one direction and the number of fatalities has gone the other, in very dramatic and telling numbers.

That was the whole point.

Perspective. Sometimes it matters to the discussion.

Everyone alive today survived their childhood. Sanity optional.

quote:

Originally posted by Surefire:
The 13 year old isn't the only one at risk - in an accident she becomes a weapon that is sure to contribute to injury/death of the other occupants. Physics, it hurts.

Thank you. We got laws about securing loads, don't we? Well what is a person? We're nothing but big sacks of wet chimp meat, unsecured in an accident, we go flying about, bonking into other sacks that are belted in.

Don't be a selfish cunt, put your goddamn seatbelt on.

I should write public service announcements.

Unsecured child violations do not get warnings from me. Ever. And here's why:

June 13th 2015, I was in field training for my first agency. I stopped a white Dodge Durango for a defective headlamp right before it got onto Interstate 80 leaving a local gas station. It was a mom and her four children, and they were on one of several back and forth trips from Illinois to Colorado in the process of moving. For reference, the agency I worked for was on I80 about halfway between Iowa City, IA and Des Moines, IA.

The four kids in the car ranged in age from less than a year old, up to probably 8. None of them were properly secured. One of the kids, a 4 year old boy, was asleep on the floor of the car behind the driver seat. Another child was sitting on a back seat with no restraint device, and the two kids in car seats were not properly fit and secured.

I wrote mom a fist full of tickets for child restraint violations, photographed the kids how we found them, and we got the kids secured, and sent her on her way. Our State code specifically says that failure to secure a child does not constitute criminal negligence, so I did what I could. Mom gave exactly zero fucks about the entire thing.

Later that week (Thursday the 18th), my car radio caught skip broadcast on a state patrol frequency. The troopers in the area I worked dispatched through a tower that was about 20 miles away. For some reason, we caught a reckless driver broadcast from the western part of the state, over 120 miles away. The plate given was the same vehicle as the stop from June 13th, driving all over the road westbound on I80. It was the only skip we caught all night, and I happened to be in my car and heard it. I never heard another broadcast off that tower as long as I worked for that agency. Usually skip broadcasts are broken and full of static, but this one was crystal clear. I actually told my FTO to shut up when I heard the plate being read off because I knew who it was.

The next day, the mom, her four kids, and the mom’s boyfriend were traveling near Brighton, CO when a rear tire on the vehicle burst. The car rolled several times, everyone got ejected, the boyfriend died on scene, and at least one of the kids was on life support for quite some time before ultimately surviving. Some of you may recognize it, but this photo went pretty big on the news and Facebook and such. It is of a Brighton, CO police officer comforting one of the kids after the crash.



I recognized the kid, and got ahold of one of BPD’s detectives later that day. During their investigation, they found my citations from the week before. I sent the photos to their detective, and was able to get the audio clip from the State Patrol of the reckless driver broadcast, so they got a copy of that as well. The district attorney out there ended up filing some pretty serious charges against the mom. She was originally facing 4 counts of Child Abuse--Negligence. After getting my photos, my citations, and the state patrol radio broadcast that I heard, they enhanced the charges to 4 counts of Child Abuse--Knowingly and Recklessly (3 resulting in serious bodily injury, 1 resulting in bodily injury).

She was facing 25+ years in prison at one point. I don’t think they’ve resolved the case yet. I got a nice letter and a challenge coin from Brighton PD. It was a nice gesture.

I share this story with people sometimes because it is important. All I did was write a few traffic tickets, and it greatly impacted a criminal case in another state. Although just a small blip on the radar on my end, those citations and that traffic stop were probably the most important thing I've done in my short (2 years in) career thus far.

As a kicker, the mom tried to sell her trailer to pay for her legal fees and someone torched it. She had no insurance on it, either. Karma.

As to your specific circumstance, I would make an adult give up their seat for the 13 year old. Adults can be unsecured in the back seat in Iowa.

Again, unsecured people are dangerous to the others in the vehicle, legal or not.

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
7 Passenger van....Family of 8!

Sounds like their vehicle is inadequately configured for the size of their family. They need to ditch the 'captain's chairs' in the second row and get a bench seat! Maybe you should suggest they check with some salvage yards for more appropriate seating. And if they won't do it, maybe you could/should check for them.

The oldest is usually considered the toughest, but certainly not expendable! Their current situation is a tragedy waiting to happen!

holdem - Any update? They need to rectify this situation! If they can't afford to replace their existing vehicle, I'm sure a bench seat (w/ seat belts) can be procured at a salvage yard for a reasonable price. Due to all the seating options available for minivans, it's probably a simple bolt in solution!

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

quote:

Originally posted by Scoutmaster:
I don't know how many hundreds of miles we kids logged in the bed of an open pickup truck. Sometimes we sat on the open tail gate going down the road. Had zero injuries.

Yeah we did all kinds of stuff with no problems when I was a kid. Lot less safety stuff too - no airbags, less attention to crumple zones, etc. Back then we didn't know better and we didn't have the government wiping our backsides for us. It was a different world. I don't expect we'll ever get it back.

How many times have you seen a child's brains leaking out of their crushed skull as you try and revive them? I've seen it enough times to know seat belts save brain matter. I know this by all of the children I have seen from bad car accidents who's only complaint is a bruised chest and indian burn on the side of their neck.

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
They need to ditch the 'captain's chairs' in the second row and get a bench seat! Maybe you should suggest they check with some salvage yards for more appropriate seating.

holdem - Any update? They need to rectify this situation! If they can't afford to replace their existing vehicle, I'm sure a bench seat (w/ seat belts) can be procured at a salvage yard for a reasonable price. Due to all the seating options available for minivans, it's probably a simple bolt in solution!

No update yet. These are not family members I see often. But suggesting a bench seat for the second row is a good idea. I appreciate all the feedback.