The ongoing saga of my wife's 2004 Sienna is nearing it's conclusion. Quick recap:

Intermittent misfiring in cylinder 3 at 150k miles. Plugs and coils were changed. Leak down test failed quite spectacularly (60% leakage in #3). No trace of oil in coolant.

Intermittent misfiring has progressed to constant HARD misfiring. The van is parked and not in use now.

The mechanic who did the leak down said it has worn valve guides and it needed a head job.

A set of reman heads from Autozone and head gaskets will run about $1100... A local machine shop will get back to me tomorrow about rebuilding my current heads, but I expect the price to be similar. I have a buddy who is qualified and experienced and willing to do the labor.

Bluebook for the vehicle in "Good" condition, which is fair if repaired is $3500-$6000 for private party sale.

So, options:

1) Don't bother and scrap it. I can get $1000 for it as is.

2) Invest $1100, plus some to my buddy for his time, and keep it.

3) Invest $1100, plus some to my buddy for his time, and sell it for $5,000.

I like it well enough and it fits the needs, I'm just kinda "soured" on this specific vehicle. If replacing, it'll likely be replaced by a newer Sienna as we like the AWD.... something much newer and with less than 40,000 miles probably.

The pragmatic side of me says to go with the repair and keep as it is relatively inexpensive and keeps us from taking on a payment. The other side says its 15 years old as it is and to replace it while the replacing time is nigh.

What say ye?

Question:
Scrap, repair/keep, repair/replace, other?

Choices:
Scrap it, pocket $1000
Repair it and keep it
Repair it and sell it, pocket ~$3500
Park it in a place likely to get creamed by a drunk driver
Other

 

If I'm correct, cylinder #3 should be in the front so access shouldn't be too bad. Is that correct?

I imagine a machine shop would cost less to repair your heads than a set from Auto Zone.

With only 150k miles on the vehicle, I think you can still get some good use out of it if everything else is in still usable condition. Then again I'm the guy with 192k on his 2003 Honda Civic who refuses to give it up because the car is paid for, cheap to run and gets good mileage.

If you can't do the tear down and install yourself to save on labour, the question becomes one of economics.

How large a loan, at what interest rate, and at how a duration can you afford, and what can you buy with a loan for that amount?

I went through this drill two years ago. I concluded I could afford a $12000 loan at 2.875% interest, over 36 months. It gave me a monthly payment of $450 (numbers off top of head, so may not be correct).

I then went to look for a vehicle. New cars were out of my reach, so I searched for used cars. Used pickups were out of reach. I kept looking until I found a 2015 KIA Soul, with 25k miles, that sold as new because it was a dealership's loaner car. It was a heck of a find.

It met my requirements for condition, insurance costs, etc., and was in my price range.

Now its decision time. Do I burden myself with a loan for three years when fixing my current car was the cost of four payments? I decided it was worth the stretch on the loan for a car 15 years newer, and that has A/C.

So fix and keep, fix and sell, scrap... It's your call, based on your position.

For me the question is not what now? It is whats next? Its 15 years old. Once you fix it, it will still be a 15 year old Sienna, awaiting its next expensive repair.
Give it a decent burial.

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
If I'm correct, cylinder #3 should be in the front so access shouldn't be too bad. Is that correct?

I imagine a machine shop would cost less to repair your heads than a set from Auto Zone.

With only 150k miles on the vehicle, I think you can still get some good use out of it if everything else is in still usable condition. Then again I'm the guy with 192k on his 2003 Honda Civic who refuses to give it up because the car is paid for, cheap to run and gets good mileage.

Cylinder 3 is on the rear bank. The timing belt has to come off to do the job.

A leakdown test in itself won't indicate work valve guides; it can however indicate if the rings or valves/valve seats are leaking. A properly conducted test can also tell you if it's the intake or exhaust valves (assuming air is coming out of the intake or exhaust system and not the crankcase breather). I say fix it if it's really the heads and not the cylinder bore/rings - but dump it if the rings are shot.

I'd scrap it. With 150k miles, and you having to pay a mechanic to fix it. It's going to be a money pit. Next will be the transmission or something similar. Can't the mechanic or you bore scope the cylinder through the spark plug hole? Harbor freight sells bore scopes for less than $50 now. There's a good chance it dropped a piece of valve seat or something else and the cylinder/piston/rings are tore up and you need a complete rebuild, especially if you've been driving it a while like this which could wash the cylinder out. Then you have money in the tear down also before junking it/scrapping it.

If you do decide to fix it, I'd have a local GOOD machine shop do the heads, rather than taking my chances with Autozone rebuilt garbage.

I would have a local machine shop

quote:

Originally posted by aileron:
A leakdown test in itself won't indicate work valve guides; it can however indicate if the rings or valves/valve seats are leaking. A properly conducted test can also tell you if it's the intake or exhaust valves (assuming air is coming out of the intake or exhaust system and not the crankcase breather). I say fix it if it's really the heads and not the cylinder bore/rings - but dump it if the rings are shot.

He did it properly and told me where heard the air coming from, I just don’t remember where he said specifically. He did say it was not getting out past the rings but was through the valves. I just remember if he said exhaust or intake.

headsonly.com
I have bought from them and they are good to go.

I voted to Repair & Keep It. Typically, Toyota's and Honda's will go 300K miles before the motor will need to be rebuilt. Your vehicle is only have way through its life. It sucks to sink a few grand into it, but it is far cheaper than a new or used car loan. Fix it and run it until it falls apart! BTW...I would NOT used Autozone quality parts, fix what you have or get OEM parts.

I voted to scrap it, especially if you can get $1K for it as is. Been run too long with the misfire, possible Cat converter problems down the road, hard to work on under the hood (not much room to do anything). Seem to recall that had A/C issues also.
Too much to invest on something that old and still expect it to be reliable.

If the cylinder is weak, and you're sure it's not the rings, then you've got guides (leakdown, you'll hear it through the oil filler cap) or valves (you'll hear it through the induction, or exhaust).

The problem is that you said it's misfiring "hard." An engine that's misfiring may have a slight knock, but if you've got a low compression cylinder, it should be getting less and less the lower the compression gets.

Unless...unless it's a stuck valve, in which case you're getting induction mixture in your exhaust or exhaust pushing into your intake manifold, or potential backfiring through the induction, or afterfiring through the exhaust.

A new or rebuilt head should take care of that, assuming that it is the issue, that no other damage has been done (eg, valve parts falling into the cylinder and scoring it, or detonation problems).

A head isn't particularly expensive, and if the rest of the car is running well enough, then it may be the most economical choice.

15yrs old? Let it go. I've been in similar situations and it sucked to have a payment but I don't like my wife driving something that's gotten to the point that it's likely to break down anytime.

I vote to repair and keep it.

I have an 03 Odyssey with 254k. At 168k, replaced the transmission for $3K.

At 207k, a strange oil leak couldn’t be located and I was leaking like the Exxon Valdez. Got an 04 Pilot motor with 65k. Total cost of engine swap and other while-you’re-at-it parts was $2000.

So I sank $5k into an otherwise solid van in the past 60k miles. Since then I’ve done regular maintenance. It’s lasted two teenage drivers. It’s very practical. It passed smog on Friday without a problem. I’ve had no CEL in that time either.

Honestly I think we’re too quick to scrap vehicle and think a new car (and payment) is better in the long term.

^^^I'm getting to the point where I agree with this. A few thousand a year to keep a vehicle going that is in otherwise good condition and meets your needs or car payments on a newer car that will be higher than the repair costs and no guarantee that you won't have repair costs.

As far as the getting stuck on the road because the vehicle is older and what will go wrong next arguments go, a well maintained vehicle should give plenty of warning that something is happening. Case in point, the OP's vehicle's cylinder heads gave plenty of warning.

If it's a rust bucket and the interior is shot, let it go.

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
For me the question is not what now? It is whats next? Its 15 years old. Once you fix it, it will still be a 15 year old Sienna, awaiting its next expensive repair.
Give it a decent burial.

This is a primary driver in my hesitation to fix and keep. At heart, I'm a cheapskate. I realized that years ago. I want to be cheap, and fixing and keeping is the best option under that header.

However, as I get older I am valuing things like reliability and quality more and more, especially when it comes to goods for my wife and children. 10 years ago I'd do a lot myself to save a buck, those days are fading and anymore I find myself paying to have things done for convenience sake.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
I'd scrap it. With 150k miles, and you having to pay a mechanic to fix it. It's going to be a money pit. Next will be the transmission or something similar. Can't the mechanic or you bore scope the cylinder through the spark plug hole? Harbor freight sells bore scopes for less than $50 now. There's a good chance it dropped a piece of valve seat or something else and the cylinder/piston/rings are tore up and you need a complete rebuild, especially if you've been driving it a while like this which could wash the cylinder out. Then you have money in the tear down also before junking it/scrapping it.

If you do decide to fix it, I'd have a local GOOD machine shop do the heads, rather than taking my chances with Autozone rebuilt garbage.

We scoped it when we replaced the plugs and coils before, the bore looked good then. It has been driven since then, and of course it was driven a bit yesterday to get it home once it started actively misfiring on the continuous basis. My buddy is willing to scope it again for sure and he mentioned he can easily inspect the bore if he pulls the head. I just don't want him to go through the hassle to pull the head if I end up taking it to Pick n Pull.

One of the local machine shops is going to call me in a morning. I'll call the other one as well.

quote:

Originally posted by F_L:
headsonly.com
I have bought from them and they are good to go.

I went parts hunting on the internet earlier and made a spread sheet. They are one the places I stumbled across. They don't have the head from my specific engine listed but they have an earlier version of it listed for $325. I sent them a price quote request so hopefully they get back to me in the morning. That would bring the cost under $1000, which would be great.

EDIT: They already returned my request. $325, core required, $20 return shipping per core. So, $690 for both heads plus gaskets. Sounds promising.

quote:

Originally posted by rizzle:
I voted to scrap it, especially if you can get $1K for it as is. Been run too long with the misfire, possible Cat converter problems down the road, hard to work on under the hood (not much room to do anything). Seem to recall that had A/C issues also.
Too much to invest on something that old and still expect it to be reliable.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
If the cylinder is weak, and you're sure it's not the rings, then you've got guides (leakdown, you'll hear it through the oil filler cap) or valves (you'll hear it through the induction, or exhaust).

The problem is that you said it's misfiring "hard." An engine that's misfiring may have a slight knock, but if you've got a low compression cylinder, it should be getting less and less the lower the compression gets.

Unless...unless it's a stuck valve, in which case you're getting induction mixture in your exhaust or exhaust pushing into your intake manifold, or potential backfiring through the induction, or afterfiring through the exhaust.

A new or rebuilt head should take care of that, assuming that it is the issue, that no other damage has been done (eg, valve parts falling into the cylinder and scoring it, or detonation problems).

This helped me remember that he said he heard the air through the oil cap. He being the current full time mechanic.

As far as the other stuff, I don't know... There was no "loud backfire", at least not what I traditionally think of when I hear the term. Sounds like we need to scope the bore before we commit to repairing, if we end up leaning that way.

I appreciate the wide and varied opinions, that is exactly what I was looking for. The fact that there are opinions going in each direction validate my own internal debate.

Torn between fix & keep and scrap. Depends on your situation & sense of the vehicle. If you’re otherwise happy with it and funds are an issue, fix and keep may be your best bet. If you’re soured on the vehicle and can afford to scrap and trade up, that may be a better bet for you.

I’d be wary of fix and sell. I’d be compelled to honestly disclose the repair work. I (and I expect most buyers) tend to be questioning when someone does a major repair then sells. Did they do it right? Or did they cut corners and slap it back together so it could become someone else’s problem? One might not end up realizing as much as they expect or it might take a lot more time to get it.

Good luck whatever you decide!

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
Cylinder 3 is on the rear bank. The timing belt has to come off to do the job.

Yuck!

That rear bank is a pain in the ass for anything.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:
Torn between fix & keep and scrap. Depends on your situation & sense of the vehicle. If you’re otherwise happy with it and funds are an issue, fix and keep may be your best bet. If you’re soured on the vehicle and can afford to scrap and trade up, that may be a better bet for you.

I’d be wary of fix and sell. I’d be compelled to honestly disclose the repair work. I (and I expect most buyers) tend to be questioning when someone does a major repair then sells. Did they do it right? Or did they cut corners and slap it back together so it could become someone else’s problem? One might not end up realizing as much as they expect or it might take a lot more time to get it.

Good luck whatever you decide!

Oh we'd certainly advertise it is a recently having re-manufactured heads installed. I wouldn't hide anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
Cylinder 3 is on the rear bank. The timing belt has to come off to do the job.

Yuck!

That rear bank is a pain in the ass for anything.

Yea, my coworker who is doing work on it for me has gotten good at it. He can get the air plenum and intake off and pull the coil and plug in about 25 minutes total, another 20 to button it all back up. I just talked with him and he's down to do it again and scope the cylinder to check it's status.

I keep hearing different accounts of the leakdown test. First it's the exhaust, then the intake, then you don't know, now this?

quote:

This helped me remember that he said he heard the air through the oil cap.

Air through the oil fill is a piston ring sealing problem, not a head gasket or valves. Heads aren't going to fix that. And did it not also have an overheating problem some time back? Whatever came of that? All these problems are making me think a used engine (unfortunately a crapshoot whether you get a good one) or a reputable rebuilt (e.g., Jasper) engine would be a better idea. Or sell it for whatever you can get as a "mechanic's special."