I'm not sure what this is all about. Is this something to be concerned about as a frequent flyer, or is it just hype?

It sounds like something that wasn't thought through very well, but again, I know nothing about 5G.

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The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) said Sunday it had cleared an estimated 45% of the U.S. commercial airplane fleet to perform low-visibility landings at many airports where 5G C-band will be deployed starting Wednesday.

The FAA has warned that potential interference could affect sensitive airplane instruments such as altimeters and make an impact on low-visibility operations.

The FAA approved two radio altimeter models used in many Boeing and Airbus planes, including some Boeing 737, 747, 757, 767, MD-10/-11 and Airbus A310, A319, A320, A321, A330 and A350 models. The announcement came just days before AT&T and Verizon launch new 5G service on Wednesday. The FAA said it expects to issue more approvals in the coming days.

The FAA said the aircraft and altimeter approvals open "runways at as many as 48 of the 88 airports most directly affected by 5G C-band interference." But the agency warned that "even with these new approvals, flights at some airports may still be affected."

AT&T and Verizon, which won nearly all of the C-Band spectrum in an $80 billion auction last year, on Jan. 3 agreed to buffer zones around 50 airports to reduce interference risks and take other steps to reduce potential interference for six months. They also agreed to delay deployment for two weeks, averting an aviation safety standoff. The FAA on Thursday issued nearly 1,500 notices detailing the extent of potential impact of 5G services.

"The FAA also continues to work with manufacturers to understand how radar altimeter data is used in other flight control systems. Passengers should check with their airlines if weather is forecast at a destination where 5G interference is possible," the FAA said Sunday.

On Jan. 7, the FAA disclosed the 50 U.S. airports that will have 5G buffer zones, including in New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Las Vegas, Minneapolis, Detroit, Dallas, Philadelphia, Seattle and Miami.

On Thursday, Airports Council International – North America urged a delay 5G implementation to avoid widespread disruption across the U.S air transportation system.

On Friday, the FAA said it would require Boeing 787 operators to take additional precautions when landing on some wet or snowy runways. The FAA said 5G interference could prevent engine and braking systems from transitioning to landing mode, which could prevent aircraft from stopping on the runway.

https://www.newsmax.com/newsfr...22/01/16/id/1052653/

I guess if we see aircraft dropping from the sky we know what happened.

I'm inclined to think this is extra caution.

Remember all the claims that cell phones would interfere with avionics and you had to turn it off completely, not just use airplane mode? Now you can pretty much leave it on all the time and no one really cares. This appears to be more of the same.

2014 the FAA issued an AD Air Worthiness Directive there were multiple cases Displays going blank or blinking on airliners due to interference most likely from cellphones.

The FAA made Honeywell recall the displays and replace them with upgraded units.

If there is stuff happening with 5G they will again make someone fix it.

The FAA is issuing Notices to Airmen (NOTAMs) at a number of airports where instrument approaches are conducted. Its specific to the use of radio altimeters, which may be affected by 5G interference. For approaches involving autoland capability that use radio altimeters as part of the landing logic, the notice to airman restricts those aircraft from specific approaches around the country.

It's a work in progress.

As a passenger, you shouldn't be concerned about your safety, but it does have the potential to impact an important piece of equipment on board, and may restrict aircraft from flying certain approaches. This may prevent some aircraft from landing at some locations under low visibility conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
I'm inclined to think this is extra caution.

Remember all the claims that cell phones would interfere with avionics and you had to turn it off completely, not just use airplane mode? Now you can pretty much leave it on all the time and no one really cares. This appears to be more of the same.

It's not just an "extra precaution."

The issue with cell phones was an FCC restriction. The issue with personal electronic devices on board aircraft extended to more than just cell phones.

Operators have always been authorized to allow personal electronic devices, but each one must be tested and approved under all conditions.

Over the last 25 years or so, the aviation safety reporting system database included thousands of cases of personal electronic device (PED) interference.

The 5G issue is not the same thing, and has a specific interference problem, with the radio altimeter.

Thanks for explaining the 5G/altimeter issue. Makes sense.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
As a passenger, you shouldn't be concerned about your safety, but it does have the potential to impact an important piece of equipment on board, and may restrict aircraft from flying certain approaches. This may prevent some aircraft from landing at some locations under low visibility conditions.

As much as we pilots love to hate on the FAA, they (along with the rest of the industry) have done a pretty darned good job of building a safe system. There are a lot of layers that protect against a lot more bad outcomes than we might otherwise expect.

My guess is that the impact (if any) to passengers would be flights not getting through to their intended point of landing and the accompanying snarl. It may be that the flights are cancelled or delayed, or it may be that they have to land elsewhere. An annoyance and inconvenience, absolutely. A safety issue? Well, an extra bit of safety equipment may not work, but the overall system will likely prevent any injuries (other than to schedules) as a result.

And (again, just guessing, but…) I expect that any impact on flights getting where they’re supposed to go when they’re supposed to get there will be lost in the noise compared to all the thrash that is happening due to Covid.

Thinking that having the cell phones turned off during flight was because they couldn't figure out the billing for roaming charges.

Most 5G transmitters have a serviceable range of 850 feet.

I should have noted that the 5G issue presently with the radio altimeter isn't about cell phones on board, but 5G frequency interference from towers in proximity to airports.

The radio altimeter sometimes called a "radar altimeter," is a look-down device from the underside of the airplane, which gives a precise measured altitude above the surface directly underlying the airplane. While all other altimetry devices on board take their information from air pressure and air data computers to determine altitude above sea level, the radio altimeter is a device measuring distance from the ground directly under the aircraft. It becomes active in most equipment at 2,500' above the surface.

Radio altimeter output is to ground proximity warning systems, flight control systems, landing gear systems, braking systems, etc. During category III landing operations, which involve landing with no visibility or ceiling, the airplane flies to a touch down, including final flare, landing, and braking, deployment of speed brakes (drag devices), and tracks the runway centerline. One may not see the runway at all until the airplane is on the ground, and even then, may not see the ground; only a single in-pavement light ahead of the airplane as one taxies clear.

Radio altimetry is used to determine closure rate with the ground, and coupled with a worldwide terrain and obstacle database, is used for ground proximity warning, or EGPWS. EGPWS looks at descent rate, aircraft configuration (gear, flaps, etc), and other factors, and uses the terrain database as well as the radio altimeter, to provide warnings which may be coupled with windshear warnings, to warn the crew of an excess rate of descent on an approach, or approaching unsafe terrain, and so forth.

The radio altimeter is also combined with aircraft configuration data to warn of unsafe conditions, such as flaps extended when the landing gear is not, or too low without gear or flaps extended, or improperly configured for landing.

A large airplane is flown with a lot of references to numbers and number-driven data; less by "feel," as one does in a light airplane. Consequently, during an approach, the radio altimeter provides data that are used for call-outs, an aural voice announcement of 2,500, 1,000, 500, minimums above runway for descent on an approach, 50, 40, 30, 20, and 10 feet...and the timing of those callouts are used to help the pilot determine when to make power reductions on the engines, when to change pitch attitude to flare for landing, and to aid in situational awareness for final descent rate and timing for the landing. Radio altimetry is integral to large airplane operations in visual and low visibility conditions, and even where it doesn't impact autoland operations, it's still used as a part of nearly every landing as well as by multiple aircraft systems.

The conflict is with the radio frequency with which the radio altimeter operates (think of it like radar or sonar, bouncing a signal off surfaces below the transmitters on the belly of the airplane: signal interference may return false data). The solution may be a combination of frequency change, cell tower location or orientation, approach restrictions or even aircraft restrictions, or any combination of them. For the time being, notices are being issued that are legal qualifiers that are warnings or information about equipment and approaches. NOTAMS are put out for everything from approach, runway, and taxiway lights inoperative to changes in approach minimums, navigation equipment outages, changes in frequency or procedures, and so on. Every flight typically involves a review of hundreds of NOTAMS at the departure and destination, alternate airports, enroute facilities, and so forth. On a typical flight, I might see seventy pages of them...which is a lot of information to review in the hour before departure, and then plan around any contingincy or limitations on the flight. The NOTAMs for radio altimeter interference are just one more of many limitations or restrictions on flight operations to consider when setting up and conducting a flight.

US airlines warn of 'calamity' if 5G deployed near airports

The chief executives of America's largest airlines warned of a "catastrophic disruption" to travel and shipping operations if telecommunication firms roll out their 5G technology as planned Wednesday without limiting the technology near US airports.

Verizon and AT&T have already twice delayed the launch of their new C-Band 5G service, due to warnings from airlines and aircraft manufacturers concerned that the new system might interfere with the devices planes use to measure altitude.

"We are writing with urgency to request that 5G be implemented everywhere in the country except within the approximate two miles of airport runways as defined by the FAA on January 19, 2022," the CEOs said in a Monday letter obtained by AFP.

The executives, writing to Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg and other US government officials, highlighted the risk of "economic calamity" should Verizon and AT&T proceed with deploying the new technology before the necessary upgrades and changes have been made to aviation equipment.

"To be blunt, the nation's commerce will grind to a halt," they said.

The Federal Aviation Administration said Sunday it had approved some transponders to be safely operated within areas where 5G will be deployed, clearing "as many as 48 of the 88 airports most directly affected by 5G C-Band interference."

But the airlines are worried that remaining limitations at those airports, as well as a large amount of equipment still uncertified, could trigger a crisis including the grounding of thousands of flights.

In addition to the transport secretary, their letter was addressed to the head of the FAA, the head of the Federal Communications Commission and the White House's National Economic Council.

US airlines also have protested against the potential costs incurred.

The executives called on authorities to "take whatever action necessary to ensure that 5G is deployed except when towers are too close to airport runways until the FAA can determine how that can be safely accomplished without catastrophic disruption."

The letter was signed by CEOs of major airlines including American, United, Delta and Southwest, as well as the leaders of shipping giants FedEx and UPS.

"Immediate intervention is needed to avoid significant operational disruption to air passengers, shippers, supply chain and delivery of needed medical supplies," they wrote.

"In addition to the chaos caused domestically," the letter continues, the lack of certified planes "could potentially strand tens of thousands of Americans overseas."

Verizon and AT&T won contracts worth tens of billions of dollars last February to operate 5G in the 3.7-3.98 GHz frequency bands, and the rollout of the service was due to begin on December 5.

Unless the major telecommunications companies are blocked by federal regulators or reach an agreement with the airlines, they are now scheduled to turn on their 5G service nationwide on January 19.

https://news.yahoo.com/us-airl...ty-5g-233418874.html

quote:

As a passenger, you shouldn't be concerned about your safety,

There are other concerns about 5G and it's not when we are a passenger in an aircraft.

I guess we will find out when they turn on the switch. Some predict apocalyptic Y2K events, others are downplaying it completely. The truth will fall out some where in between.

I suspect one or two reports to go viral with very little background information to actually confirm an issue. Kinda like reading Amazon reviews - some consumers simply don't have any technical background and their expectations are their only guidelines in evaluating a product. My favorite lately is "Impossible to program I wasted my money!" In other words, couldn't set the time on a digital watch with reading the manual. Really.

I don't believe the assurances "nothing will happen" any more than I will believe "5G crashed my car!" People blame guns for going off without pulling the trigger to get out of their incompetence. It will be another exploitative legal resource.

For the most part, the ‘radio altimeter’ comes into use for very low visibility approaches.

The usual cutoff is below 1/2 mile visibility, possibly combined with a 200’ or less cloud layer above the pavement. Yes, there can be slight exceptions to those limits.

Look at some airports, Seattle, Dulles, could be most any busy airport. Even with low weather, much of the traffic moves seamlessly, though a tad slower than with better condition.

The problem will come when the radar altimeter use is removed from use during the low approach, now we need the 1/2 or better visibility. If this were to happen, the flight could cancel or the likelihood of a divert is higher. It’s not really a higher chance of a crash, just mucks up the system.

I think there’s more of a real issue here than previous mention of cell phone use messing with instruments. Yeah, low viz landings are not exceedingly common, but I think with added restrictions, it will be noticed.

Like many things, I think it will be sorted out at some point.

In some aircraft, the radio altimeter is an integral part of normal flight, not just low vis approaches.

quote:

Originally posted by sourdough44:
I think there’s more of a real issue here than previous mention of cell phone use messing with instruments. Yeah, low viz landings are not exceedingly common, but I think with added restrictions, it will be noticed.

Like many things, I think it will be sorted out at some point.

Where I believe it will show up is in the ripple effect. At our little airport certain times of the year the first flight of the day is often delayed because the last flight the night before wasn’t able to make it in. If the airplane isn’t here, it is kinda hard to fly it out.

The airline system has an awful lot of dependencies and is planned really tight. There are not a lot of multimillion dollar aircraft sitting around gassed up and ready to go, spare. Not a lot of crews sitting around playing cards while getting paid by the hour in case they’re needed for a trip. It is all planned and choreographed pretty tight.

Initially, trips not getting through will probably cause more schedule trauma because of the ripple effect. Eventually, either the technology will be figured out to allow a workaround or the choreography will adjust to minimize and better handle the failure to get through.

AT&T announces delay of 5G launch near some airports, after request for White House intervention

AT&T announced on Tuesday that it is delaying the activation of 5G on some towers close to airports around the country. Airports warned of potentially dire consequences of the rollout, which had been scheduled for Wednesday.

The Federal Aviation Administration warned that the rollout could interfere with instruments used by modern aircraft, therefore forcing airlines to cancel flights.

The company says that it will work with the aviation industry and the FAA for further guidance.

"At our sole discretion we have voluntarily agreed to temporarily defer turning on a limited number of towers around certain airport runways as we continue to work with the aviation industry and the FAA to provide further information about our 5G deployment, since they have not utilized the two years they’ve had to responsibly plan for this deployment."

"We are frustrated by the FAA's inability to do what nearly 40 countries have done, which is to safely deploy 5G technology without disrupting aviation services, and we urge it do so in a timely manner," said a spokeswoman for the company.

The conglomerate continues to go ahead with launching advanced 5G services in all other initially planned locations.

Prior to Tuesday's announcement, the administration said it was in conversation with telecom companies, government entities, and airlines about the issue.

Verizon also said it would voluntarily limit its 5G network rollout near airports.

https://justthenews.com/nation..._campaign=newsletter

Seems like the areas around big city airports are likely to be the first with 5g rollout since they have a high population density.
Kind of crazy that it didn't get more attention earlier in this process.

Personally, I think this is BS on the part of the airlines. It’s been well known for years that 5G was coming, and the cell carriers have made known exactly when they were going to start switching it on. The airlines and FCC should have been looking at this and working it out as soon as the wireless companies bought the 5G frequencies years ago. Now just as it’s supposed to start (again the date was known well in advance), the airlines first ask for a two week delay, and now “if they turn this on, air travel will be disrupted or people will die”. Sounds to me like the airlines drug their feet on this, or are too cheap to buy new altimeters that operate on different frequencies, so now they expect the cell phone carriers and customers to pay for them not having their stuff together. I think the cell carriers ought to be able to sue the airlines for damages. I’m sure the ineptitude of the FAA and FCC have a part in this too.

I don’t see anyone asking the airlines why they are suddenly bringing this up now. Not the media, not the federal government (no real surprise there), not anyone. Zero accountability.

The FCC didn't consult with or work with the FAA on that matter at all, just went ahead and approved use of radio spectrum adjacent to that used for radar altimeters despite the objections of the FAA.

The airlines won't get much of a choice in how to fix this, the FAA will pretty much dictate what they need to do.

This didn't just come up now. It's been a major talking point in aviation for some time now. Simply because you're just hearing about doesn't mean it needs to be diminished.

It IS a genuine concern, and to those who know, it's been an important concern for some time.

It doesn't only impact airlines. It impacts any aircraft utilizing a radio altimeter for instrument operations.

Watching News Nation, you'd think this is 5G-mageddon or something. Remember Y2K and the virtual nothing-burger it was? Don't they think the airlines have been getting ready for years?