Was watching a video on RAID - French National Police's SWAT equivalent and they showed a RAID officer holding a Kel-Tec KSG - @ 10:29






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fA1zVulQKA

Dressed up with Magpul MBUS, EOTech 512 and Streamlight TLR-1 HL.

Is that optic a good choice for a scattergun?

EoTech is a good choice for a shotgun.

I volunteer on Sundays as the RSO for my clubs shotgun ranges. One of the duties for the RSO is to provide a safety lesson to new shooters and assisting them in starting out on the Trap range. Last weekend we had 4 new shooters show up, both Father & Son pairs. Pair 1 came with a 20 gauge Winchester pump for the Dad and one of these Keltecs for the son. Pair 2 had a Mossberg pump for the dad and a Beretta 391 for the son. Went thru the Safety briefing and got everyone set up at each end of the range. Right off the bat it became obvious that the son of pair two had been doing research on the net and had the basics for mounting properly fully grasped, enough to teach is Dad how to mount a shotgun properly. They didn't start hitting immediately but towrds the end of the first box they started hitting. So I left them on their own. Pair 1 had issues. One major issue was that brand new Winchester pump would not leave even a hint of a mark on the primer of a live round. That left them sharing the Keltec which is a horrible choice for shooting Trap on a voice triggered range. After seeing 4 clays sent downrange while the son was charging it I suggested that he stop calling for the clay and used the noise generated to send the bird flying. That actually worked out rather well. What didn't work well at all was the reflex sight, it's distinctly difficult to apply the correct lead when the target is outside the the window of the sight. End result was the Dad hit 2 quartering shots to the left and 1 straightaway and the son managed to hit 4 straightaways targets.

So, Keltec KSG. Too damned loud while charging. IF you need to charge this shotgun quietly in order to get the jump on a skunk you are going to get a full dose of skunk juice. Sight plane is much too short to hit well with it. It may be a good choice for 3 gun events but it's not a good choice for Sporting.

quote:

Originally posted by Scooter123:
Too damned loud while charging.

I want to thank you for that observation.
As I read it, I was reminded of a conversation I had many years ago with a member of a German state-level SWAT team (Spezialeinsatzkommando). I told him how much I liked the HK P7 PSP, and he told me about an exercise his unit had had with the German GSG 9 in a large industrial building. The GSG 9 team was armed with P7 pistols, and they kept cocking and uncocking them as they searched for the SEK “bad guys.” The noise the pistols made allowed my acquaintance and his group to follow the location of the searchers and prepare for their approach.

Some people like their guns to be noisy when operated, and it’s the basis for the famous “chack-chack” speech. They evidently believe that frightening a potential deadly threat is more important and effective than being able to shoot him effectively.

The point you make, though, is something that’s almost always overlooked in certain discussions: In at least some situations—and we may not get to choose the kind we’re in—being able to charge or otherwise operate a gun quietly may be important. One of the things that SWAT team members and other special “operators” are often taught is the importance of ensuring that their gear doesn’t rattle and clank while moving into standby positions. But, “Oh, I forgot to chamber a round”—? Now what?

Thanks again for prompting that thought.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Scooter123:
Too damned loud while charging.

I want to thank you for that observation.
As I read it, I was reminded of a conversation I had many years ago with a member of a German state-level SWAT team (Spezialeinsatzkommando). I told him how much I liked the HK P7 PSP, and he told me about an exercise his unit had had with the German GSG 9 in a large industrial building. The GSG 9 team was armed with P7 pistols, and they kept cocking and uncocking them as they searched for the SEK “bad guys.” The noise the pistols made allowed my acquaintance and his group to follow the location of the searchers and prepare for their approach.

Some people like their guns to be noisy when operated, and it’s the basis for the famous “chack-chack” speech. They evidently believe that frightening a potential deadly threat is more important and effective than being able to shoot him effectively.

The point you make, though, is something that’s almost always overlooked in certain discussions: In at least some situations—and we may not get to choose the kind we’re in—being able to charge or otherwise operate a gun quietly may be important. One of the things that SWAT team members and other special “operators” are often taught is the importance of ensuring that their gear doesn’t rattle and clank while moving into standby positions. But, “Oh, I forgot to chamber a round”—? Now what?

Thanks again for prompting that thought.

Just as a weapon light gives away your position every time you turn it on.

quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:


Just as a weapon light gives away your position every time you turn it on.

But makes an excellent aiming point-of-reference in the dark... for the other guy.

As I've mentioned in other threads when the "WMLs are da debil" crowd shows up, it just sounds like ya'll need some quality no-light/low-light training.

There's definitely a right way and a wrong way to do it, but WMLs are a powerful tool when used correctly.

(Hint: leaving them constantly on to flag your position and provide an easy aiming point is the very definition of "not using them correctly"...)

quote:

Originally posted by slabsides45:

quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:


Just as a weapon light gives away your position every time you turn it on.

But makes an excellent aiming point-of-reference in the dark... for the other guy.

I usually refer to weapon mounted lights as "bullet magnets".

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
As I've mentioned in other threads when the "WMLs are da debil" crowd shows up, it just sounds like ya'll need some quality no-light/low-light training.

There's definitely a right way and a wrong way to do it, but WMLs are a powerful tool when used correctly.

(Hint: leaving them constantly on to flag your position and provide an easy aiming point is the very definition of "not using them correctly"...)

I've had some, thank you, and I stand by my opinion. I decided long ago that if someone ever breaks in my house, I hope they use one because if they do, they won't have a chance. They still show exactly where someone is from time to time and that's all I need, or for that matter, all that anyone with training needs to prevail over them.

They are pretty good if you enter with overwhelming force, though, as that changes the dynamic considerably.