I apologize for the WoT, but I am seeking input and I think it best to give those I ask the information I think might be useful.
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I’m looking for input, especially any one who understands sports nutrition for the old and (less) fat.

I’ve mentioned starting an effort to lose weight beginning in January 2022. I was 61 and still suffering the lasting effects of my brush with the eternal in 2018.

By changing what I eat, when I eat, and why I eat I’ve succeeded beyond my wildest expectations (e.g., I stuck with it (that’s the astonishing part) I’m down north of 80 pounds, six inches off my waist). I eat roughly 1500 calories a day, sometime less, sometimes more. It’s about 70% of the RDV of carbs, fat, and protein need to sustain my weight. I drink 4 liters of water per day, plus sugar-free cocoa, coffee, and tea.

That said, four months ago I discovered my left shoulder, badly injured three times, with the rotator cuff repaired in 2018, needs replacement. I was directed to drop my BMI further before I can have the surgery.

Fine.

Since I already am on a restrictive diet, changing BMI means exercise. I decide to start working out again. I joined the local rec center and have been hitting the place 4-6 times per week. I decided to test my commitment by going at 0430, walking out the door in shoes, socks, shorts, tee shirt, hoodie (open, hood off) irrespective of the temperature. I can wear gloves if the temp is < 32° .

It’s been great, I even smile that I summoned enough commitment to be doing it, even though I thoroughly despise being awake at that hour. And I really despise being awake and cold at that hour. Still, I appear to need to be committed.

My usual workout is 30-65 minutes on the stationary bike, followed by a circuit with weights (e.g., chest press, leg press, stationary row), followed by a resistance band routine focused on core strength.

The bike routine is either a:

> 60 minute ride vs. resistance (RVR);

> 45 minute RvR at a higher resistance;

> 45 minute hill route at that higher resistance; or

> 60 minute hill route.

When riding, my pulse rarely exceeds 120 bpm, which is supposedly 80% of peak.

The weight circuit is leg press, leg extension, hip add and abduction, hip flexion, chest press, seated row, overhead pull-down, triceps extension, and bicep curl. The circuit is:

> After a 60 minute RvR, each exercise is done to exhaustion, twice, at roughly 100% of the max weight I can lift 20 times.

> After a 45 minute RvR at higher resistance, each exercise is done to exhaustion at a weight I cannot lift 8-12 times. If I can lift it 15 times, I increase the weight.

> After a 45 minute hill route at higher resistance, each exercise is done to failure once, at a weight I can lift 15-20 times.

> After a 60 minute hill route I’m usually exhausted,, but I still try do each exercise to exhaustion, twice, at roughly 80% of the max weight I can lift 20 times. Overhead pull-down, for example, I can do at about 80 pounds, 12 times before I keel over and die.

Fifth and Sixth rides in a week are usually RvR at a higher resistance or a hill

Resistance bands are mostly torso rotation centric. Those damn bands,the big ones, offer resistance as strong as 100 pounds of weight plate. The routine is twisting five directions, bilaterally, plus this rope gizmo that lets you pull down rope against resistance. It finishes me off neatly.

Well, I’ve plateaued in terms of weight loss and exercise performance. I feel far healthier than before, but my big metrics are stuck.

Is my problem:

> Under training (I need to work harder) and why you think so;

> Over training (you need to back off, lunatic) and why you think so; or

> Wrong training (change the exercises, their duration, and/or weight).

I’m particularly interested if any one thinks I’m over training, and needs to fix it by changing the exercises and/or schedule.

One change I’m considering is going to a schedule of

DAY ONE A 60 minute RvR, followed each weight exercise done to exhaustion, at roughly 100% of the max weight I can lift 20 times.

DAY TWO A 45 minute RvR at higher resistance, and each exercise done to exhaustion at a weight I cannot lift 8-12 times. Only leg exercises (waist down).

DAY THREE Off. Eat enough to increase to 100% of RDV of protein. Basically eat three times instead of twice.

DAY FOUR After a 60 minute hill route do each exercise to exhaustion at roughly 80% of the max weight I can lift 20 times.

DAY FIVE Off. Eat enough to increase to 200% RDV of protein. Basically eat three times the amount I normally do. Probably be chicken.

DAY SIX A 60 minute hill route; do each exercise to exhaustion at roughly 80% of the max weight.

DAY SEVEN A 45 minute hill route; do each exercise to exhaustion at roughly 80% of the max weight. Eat an additional 500 calories of protein and fat (eggs, PB).

Alternatively I could go to ride-weights-ride-off-weights-ride-off schedule where I either ride or lift.

Okay hive… fire away.

Get in the pool, especially if you have access to a salt water pool. You're much more buoyant and it's easier on your lower extremities (hips knees ankles). My nearby wellness center (age 55 plus) has a salt water pool. Very nice.

I can't swim. I admit it. But if you get in the water and move your arms and legs, and your entire body, you'll get a pretty darn good cardio workout. You can even get some whatchamacallums to put over your arms and legs to provide some more resistance to the water and thus a better workout. They make weights and stretch bands etc, for this too.

Best wishes to you, good luck.
.

I'm sure there is a ton more about this on line, but a very quick answer is:

Weight loss is in vs out.
To get more weight loss you can eat less, or exercise more.

For the improvement, you may want to try incorporating higher intensity (speed/resistance)/weight to the exercises in order to see more improvement. Small increments in a build then a rest. 4/1 builds are typical.

--K

BMI is a rough guide to put it mildly, but American medicine is hooked on it. What's more important IMO is your body composition e.g., body fat percentage.

Also, how's your sleep?
Everything else in that OP looks solid to me, but there's just no mention of your recovery phase other than a couple days "off".

1500 calories a day, sometimes less, sometimes more and plateaued on weight loss usually means you're eating more than you think you're eating.

Does your gym have an ice bath?
If not, a very cold shower will do.
3-6 minutes per day. It helps physically and mentally. Very cold water is control alt delete for humans. Check out the benefits of cold shock proteins. Interesting stuff.

Your work out routine is fantastic, but remember, cardio does not burn fat, it burns calories. More resistance training, less cardio maybe? Your walk to the gym is probably enough cardio.

quote:

Originally posted by mark60:
1500 calories a day, sometimes less, sometimes more and plateaued on weight loss usually means you're eating more than you think you're eating.

This would be my first thought. If you’re not already logging all your intake, I would recommend that. Sounds like you may be though.

I started exercise 4 years ago at age 60 and 200#, targeting doing a body building show within the year. I had a couple of trainers to work with as I am not smart enough to figure this out on my own. I have no education on weight loss or training, this is just my experience.

One trainer worked with my diet, one with my exercise. For diet I ate 100% clean - no processed foods, no sauces, only salt free spices, no desserts, just lots of eggs, chicken, white fish, 99%ground turkey, green veggies, etc. Since I needed to lose a lot of weight, my intake was around 1600-1700 calories per day. I did cardio 3 days a week for 30-45 minutes, usually on the elliptical.

For weights, I worked only one major group at a time. So - just chest/shoulders, or arms, or legs, or back. I worked out 60-90 minutes a day, 6 days a week, hard. Most days were 18-24 sets, with no more than 4 sets of a specific exercise. Rep ranges for an exercise never exceeded 15 and was usually more 10-12 - I was trying to build muscle. Every 3-4 weeks I either changed the specific exercises I was doing or changed up the order - your body learns what you are doing and adapts, which can help cause plateaus.

I progressed fairly steadily in strength and weight loss, and competed in my first natural bodybuilding show in May at 151#, while getting my bench press up to 310#.

All this to say that based on my experience, I think you are doing too much with your exercise (hitting too many body parts at once). As for cardio, everyone reacts different. I tend to lose too fast if I do too much cardio. I also don’t get affected as much by carbs - I had 200g of carbs a day even while cutting. Some people react badly to carbs and almost have to eliminate them to cut.

Good luck!

My doctor told me that for weight loss, cardio (biking, walking, running, rowing, etc.) beyond 30 minutes was wasted time better spent in the weight room.

I suffer from repetitive motion injury, so this actually works for me. Lifting puts less strain on my joints than does repetitive motion of running, etc.

My workout (and I am NOT in as good shape as you are), is 30 mins on the treadmill and the balance of my time (30 to 45 minutes) doing free weights and kettlebells.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ArtieS,

The only two things I can suggest are:

Track your nutrition closer. Keep carb intake to 40 carbs per meal. That shouldn’t be too hard if you’re only eating 1500 calories per day.t I’ve used Myfitnesspal for several years.

Not sure how you weight train but try to stay in the range of 3-4 sets and 15-20 reps per exercise.

I do alternating days of strength and cardio. Pushing day (chest, triceps, deltoids) cardio day, pulling (back, biceps, traps) cardio day, legs and abs. Typically around 45 minutes per workout. Two exercises per body part.

I’m in my mid-seventies but have been working out with slight variations for a few decades.

Hope you find a routine that works for you.

Your workouts seem to be geared towards building muscle. Muscle mass is more dense than fat mass and weighs more.
Is it possible that instead of just burning fat, you are converting that fat to muscle and that is keeping your weight at the same level? Normally this is a good thing but the change is not as evident if you are just watching the scale.
Maybe shift to a more cardo base program?

quote:

Originally posted by mark60:
1500 calories a day, sometimes less, sometimes more and plateaued on weight loss usually means you're eating more than you think you're eating.

Not necessarily.

For the average individual, who's only moderately active, that's usually true, but, Sig2340 is working out like a mad man five days a week.

I think it's more likely...

quote:

Originally posted by Jbb45:
All this to say that based on my experience, I think you are doing too much with your exercise...

This ^^^^^

I'm certainly no expert, but, I believe he's over-training. Like way over-training. That kind of program may be fine for a twenty- or thirty-something, but, a 60-plus-year-old? A sixty-plus-year-old on a calorie deficit diet?

I don't think so.

Sig2340, read up on the Stress-Recovery-Adaptation cycle. I suspect you're not achieving effective recovery. Without effective recovery, adaptation will suffer. Without adaptation, gains will suffer.

In short: You'll stall.

You might also be restricting calories in too much. The body, when it senses there's too much a calorie deficit, will employ metabolic adaptation to literally slow the metabolism down to save calories. Taken to extremes it will actually begin to store additional fat, rather than burn it.

Again: You'll stall.

In my early 60's I realized slow, but, steady strength gains and fat loss with a 5 x week training schedule, but it was:

• HIIT cardio (30 minutes) on Monday and Friday
  
• Chest, triceps, and core on Tuesday
  
• All legs on Wednesday
  
• Shoulders, back, and biceps on Thursday
  
• Saturday and Sunday were recovery days

ETA: Plus I walked ±2 miles/day M-F.

During this I aimed for a roughly 500 Cal/day deficit. I got protein supplementation every training day.

(Doing that is called "body recomposition." It requires very carefully-balanced exercise and nutrition. Too much or not enough of one or the other and strength gains suffer, you stop losing fat, or both.)

I'm in my early 70's, now, and find the above regimen a bit too much, so now it's every other day and I'm currently forgoing cardio in favor of strength training, entirely. I'll re-add cardio when I start realizing steady strength gains.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ensigmatic,

Swimming is good, and easy on the body. However most persons are super hungry after eating, and so weight loss can be less than ideal. Alternating swimming with biking is excellent.

As to your HR at 120 bpm max, you are not working out as hard as you might think. Work up to longer rides. As you improve, your max HR should increase to at least 150. When I was riding a lot, I would sustain 185 bpm for 5-10 minutes at a time, during hill climbs. If you can exercise 10-15 hours a week, your weight should continue to drop. 15 hours a week = 200 miles/week on a road bike in moderately hilly terrain.

quote:

Originally posted by c1steve:
As to your HR at 120 bpm max, you are not working out as hard as you might think.

Possibly.

For an age of sixty-two, the age-based calculations say:

MHR:
    158  (common)
    164  (age 40+)
    171  (active people)

    165  (median)

Zones (based on median MHR):
    Zone    Range     Comment
    ----  ----------  -----------------------------
     1:    83 -   99
     2:    99 -  115  (LISS) (walking/recovery)
     3:   115 -  132  (MICT) (aerobic)
     4:   132 -  149  (anaerobic)
     5:   149 -  165  (HIIT)

N.B.: These are reference/starting place numbers only. YMMV.

quote:

Originally posted by c1steve:
Work up to longer rides.

Disagree.

According to Jonathon Sullivan MD, PhD, SSC, in his book, The Barbell Prescription: Strength Training for Life After 40, seniors need strength training, not endurance training, because our bodies naturally favor retaining endurance over strength as we age.

Personally, I would favor shorter, more intense cardio (HIIT or SIT) over longer medium- or low-intensity continuous/steady-state training. HIIT and SIT are also more effective for fat-burning. N.B.: This assumes ones cardio-vascular health is good enough to tolerate it w/o danger of heart failure or stroke.

quote:

Originally posted by c1steve:
When I was riding a lot, I would sustain 185 bpm for 5-10 minutes at a time, during hill climbs.

At what age?

God do I love SIGforum.

A few additional details:

Swimming. Since my left arm does not reach above my head, swimming is a no go. Basically, only the deltoid is still attached. That is why my shoulder needs to be replaced. It will be at least nine months (likely 12 or longer) before I can swim for exercise.

Time on the bike. I understand aerobic exercise belong 30 minutes has little benefit but I use the additional time riding to meditate. I've ridden bikes long distances for long periods of my life (thousands of miles) and it is a place my brain relaxes after about 30 minutes. I use the time to focus stopping that negative self-talk many of us have. That extra 30 minutes is proving to be a place of peace I'd forgotten.

Response to specific commentors

mark60... I track what I eat and do not keep food in the house that is not on my diet plan. For example, there is no bread in my house, nor dairy. No sweets, even fruit, except for an occasion apple. So I think I know what I am consuming. It consists of healthy frozen entrees (all the same dairy/gluten-free 300-400 calories), a salad (lettuce and some lo-cal Catalina), about 4 tablespoons of peanut butter, 12 oz. OJ (starts my heart at 0400), a few mugs of black coffee (call it 48 ounces) and two or three cups of sugar-free cocoa (70 calories per 8 oz mug). All food except the OJ is eaten in a 6 hour period from 0900-1500.

c1steve... My pulse rate was much higher before my coma and recovery from that shit. It dropped, so much so we just discovered that the additional cardiac condition I have built in the last 3 months routinely drops me below 60 bpm when I am at rest. My cardiologist just cut the calcium channel blocker dose in half, and may drop it further, all to raise my resting pulse rate.

ensigmatic... Thank you. when it comes to working out like a madman, you know what they say, moderation is for cowards. I've spent today reading about the Stress-Recovery-Adaptation cycle and see that I am clearly way over doing things in the gym and not possibly eating enough in the right balance.

Based on the input:

1. I am going to spend a week or two logging everything I eat, just to make sure calories, especially junk calories are not sneaking back into my diet. Bread snuck back in last year, but was banished after a month.

2. I am going to reduce the cardio a bit. I may just reduce the time, rather than intensity. I just enjoy it.

3. I am going to separate upper and lower body weight routines for two of the days. Those sessions can focus on building specific muscles. The other two days I plan to stick to the same whole body workout, but I am going to reduce the weight and increase reps and sets.

4. Once I know what has been making it way into my mouth, I plan to up the protein consumed.


ETA: Pourquoi pas putain. I am going for a steak.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:
c1steve... My pulse rate was much higher before my coma and recovery from that shit. It dropped, so much so we just discovered that the additional cardiac condition I have built in the last 3 months routinely drops me below 60 bpm when I am at rest. My cardiologist just cut the calcium channel blocker dose in half, and may drop it further, all to raise my resting pulse rate.

My resting HR for the last...

Day: 56
Week: 56
Month: 54
Six Months: 55
Year: 58

The woman who did the EKG at my cardiologist mentioned my low HR. Then asked "Do you run?" "No," I replied, "but, up until the last three weeks or so I was doing Moderate-Intensity Continuous Training (MICT) or High-Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) on a rower twice-a-week." "Oh, that explains it," she said.

I just asked ChatGPT "What is considered a low resting heart rate?" The reply:

quote:

A low resting heart rate is typically defined as a heart rate below 60 beats per minute (BPM) in adults. However, it is important to note that what is considered a normal resting heart rate can vary depending on various factors, including age, fitness level, and overall health.

For example, athletes or individuals who engage in regular physical activity may have resting heart rates that are lower than 60 BPM due to their increased cardiovascular fitness. In some cases, certain medications or health conditions may also cause a low resting heart rate.

In general, a resting heart rate that is consistently below 60 BPM and is accompanied by symptoms such as dizziness, fainting, or shortness of breath should be evaluated by a healthcare professional to determine the underlying cause and appropriate treatment.

(Emphasis added.)

You've been working out pretty hard I'm certainly no cardiologist, but, ISTM if you're not suffering any ill symptoms your low RHR is simply a reflection of your CV fitness.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:
ensigmatic... Thank you.

You're welcome

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:
Based on the input:

...

2. I am going to reduce the cardio a bit. I may just reduce the time, rather than intensity. I just enjoy it.

Next thing to look into are the advantages of HIIT and SIT (Sprint Interval Training) over MICT and, especially, LISS (Low-Intensity Steady State) training--particularly wrt their impact on fat loss.

But, don't put yourself in danger. (I went and had a stress test and a leg echo before I resumed training in 2005.)

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:
... I plan to up the protein consumed.

Sullivan claims seniors who train heavily (to whom he refers as "Master Athletes") need 1.5 to 2 grams of protein per pound of body weight per day. The reason we need more protein than our younger cohort is we don't process it as efficiently.

I would recommend you read his book: The Barbell Prescription: Strength Training for Life After 40. I think it would be very useful to you--particularly with regards to helping you develop an effective training regimen.

I would suggest you watch this video. Cutting calories may slow your bodies metabolism making weight loss more difficult. Hormones tell the body to store calories as fat, or to burn fat as fuel. Insulin is a major hormone in this mechanism. This video explains how to lose weight without slowing down your resting metabolism.

That steak?

Awesome, though that 12 ounces of beef was akin to throwing gasoline on the simmering fire of my protein-starved metabolism.

I think my revised workout is going to help. I hurt differently.

And I learned today that since the last time I got weighed at the doc’s, about three weeks ago, and today… down 11 pounds. . Surprised the hell out of me.

First, losing weight thru exercise is mostly a myth. The problem is that as you become more fit you also become a lot more efficient.

The best way to lose weight is by adhering to a Whole Food Diet. Which means you eat a LOT of fresh veggies and something in the range or 4 ounces for meat. BTW, this means that you NEVER eat out, all your food is home prepared. Which is a good thing when you do a bit of research and find that restaurant foods are way overloaded with salt.

Food to avoid. Cheese, doesn't matter what kind of cheese it is, it's loaded with saturated fat and fat calories. Chicken or Turkey Breasts, they are typically brined and loaded with salt. Sausage of any description, they are also loaded with salt and beef and pork sausage is also loaded with saturated fat and fat calories. Pork Bacon, loaded with salt, saturated fat, and fat calories. Turkey bacon is sort of tolerable but most brands taste like crap. Processed meats, loaded with a boat load of chemical. Soup, usually loaded with salt and saturated fat and fat calories.

IF all this sounds like a Heart Smart Diet, you are spot on correct. They are not only good for the heart it's a low calorie nutritious diet.

Finally, your exercise routine is either going to end in burnout or injury. Because you are way over doing it. Back in 2015 I weighed in at 205 lbs and I am 5'10" tall. At that time my BMI was 29, overweight. Mid May of 2015 I was sitting on the couch flipping channels and it hit me, I would not live another 5 years if I didn't get off that couch and start exercising. When out for a 1 mile walk with the dog and barely made it home. That summer I worked up to 6 miles a day and walked off 50 lbs. Note, got smart on the diet side at the same time. Once a week I would treat myself to a couple of Tim Horton's chocolate chip cookies but that was a 5 mile round trip. Yeah, I started walking to run errands. Today I weighed in at 154 lbs. with a BMI of 22.0.

BTW, that decision I made back in 2015 was a life saver, in 2018 I had Open Heart Surgery for a Mitral Valve repair and a triple bypass. In 2019 I was overdoing on a Pect and Delt machine and blew up my right shoulder. Turned out that doing 75 reps at 180 lbs. is not wise for a 63 year old. Joints do weaken as we age so moderation is essential.

quote:

Originally posted by Scooter123:
First, losing weight thru exercise is mostly a myth.

That's partially true.

Exercise can aid fat loss due to increased calorie burn during the exercise and mildly-increased RMR (Resting Metabolic Rate [aka: BMR: Basal Metabolic Rate]), but, fat loss is more diet-dependent than activity-dependent.

quote:

Originally posted by Scooter123:
The problem is that as you become more fit you also become a lot more efficient.

I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean

quote:

Originally posted by Scooter123:
IF all this sounds like a Heart Smart Diet, you are spot on correct. They are not only good for the heart it's a low calorie nutritious diet.

The so-called "Heart Smart" thing is a good part of what got us into the obesity epidemic we now face.

quote:

Originally posted by Scooter123:
In 2019 I was overdoing on a Pect and Delt machine and blew up my right shoulder. Turned out that doing 75 reps at 180 lbs. is not wise for a 63 year old.

You made two mistakes: 1. Using a machine instead of free weights. There are two problems with machines: They do not train one well for Real Life Functional Strength and they can limit joint freedom-of-movement - placing unnatural stress on them. (See Note below.) 2. Too many reps. Way too many reps. Particularly for a senior.

There are exceptions, of course, but, in general terms free weights, cable machines, and body weight training are more safe and effective than sit-on/lay-on machines that isolate muscles and restrict joint freedom-of-movement.

quote:

Originally posted by Scooter123:
Joints do weaken as we age so moderation is essential.

Short of degenerative disease, arthritis, or injury: They don't have to.

Three days ago I deadlifted 195x5. Deadlifts engage everything from the shoulders through the calves (the entire posterior chain), the abs, forearms, and grip.

I'm 72 years old.

Note: One of the trainers at my gym-before-last rarely trained clients on machines, but, there were two machines he absolutely refused to let clients use: Fly machines and Smith machines, because he felt them prone to provoking joint damage.