Sounds like a good deal, but your sample size is 1, mine is thousands.
Your warranty is intact, Parts Warranty, what about 1st yr labor or workmanship?
If it all goes well, you did great.
If there are any hiccups you are a la carte.
I’ve seen this exact scenario many, many times.

You ARE gambling, but it isn’t the worst gamble ever.
I ever buy extended warranties on appliances, if I save $75 5-6 times, I can afford a new appliance with the savings in my pocket.

QUOTE]Originally posted by bigdeal:

quote:

Originally posted by ElKabong:
...in general you will be gambling going that route.

This conversation is beginning to tickle my funny bone. So let's run through this quickly.

Company 1 (one of, if not the largest company in Central Florida) comes out, does an assessment, and quotes me $7k for a complete install. Their quote includes Goodman 123 Air Handler and Goodman 987 heat pump compressor.

Company 2 comes out and quotes me ~$1k less to do the same install using the exact same Goodman equipment.

So I go through all the local online ratings places, and ask a few friends for recommendations of HVAC guys, and find a highly rated local guy who's fully licensed, and who is willing the install the same Goodman equipment that Company 1 or 2 would have used, whether he provides it or I buy it myself. Only requirement on his part is that the equipment must be at my home in the garage before he'll agree to schedule the work. Going this route saved me almost $3k overall and kept my warranty in tact, and I was rather impressed with the work this guy did.

So help me out here. How exactly is this risky or gambling with my outcome? I simply removed the HVAC company's markup on the equipment, and kept it for myself.[/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:
So help me out here. How exactly is this risky or gambling with my outcome? I simply removed the HVAC company's markup on the equipment, and kept it for myself.

You are now responsible for any labor/shipping cost for any warranty work.
If the equipment had been DOA, you'd have been eating the cost for additional labor and trip charges.

Most quality companies won't install new equipment which they didn't provide. So this eliminates several quality companies from your installing pool.

You got lucky and picked up damage free equipment, no shipping.
Most distributors will not deal with homeowners, so local pickup won't be an option for most people. That is, if they even own a vehicle which can haul said equipment.

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:
They wasn't going to do a quality job (by not replacing the line set), but you thought they'd do a proper load calc?
Too funny.

They probably did as good a load calc as anyone else I might have called. To date over the past 20 years, I've likely dealt with a dozen or so local HVAC companies on my personal and the rental homes. With the exception of the guy who installed my recent system, all of them fall into the "Never again" category. I've dealt with many plumbers, electricians, and other trades over time, but HVAC guys seem to be a special kind of scumbag, especially during the summer months. When your AC fails in June, July, or August (as it usually does here), the blood is in the water and these guys know they can screw someone to the wall because their customer 1) knows nothing about HVAC, and 2) just wants it to be cool in their home again. I have no issue with someone making a buck, but I have a huge issue in the way these guys go about what they do.

quote:

A quality company covers everything, from providing quality products, services and practises. If they rip you off, that's not quality, if they do a hack job, that's not quality.

Then I've found virtually no "quality" HVAC guys operating a business in Central Florida. They all cut corners, they all gouge on pricing, and they all don't care if they ever get a penny of business out of you a second time, so long as they get to screw you long and hard the first time.

So you found the unicorn of HVAC techs/companies. Better go buy a lotto ticket.
I guess FL is totally fucked, if there's only one company providing quality service for the whole state.

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:
Most quality companies won't install new equipment which they didn't provide.

Of course they won't because they aren't going to forego that 150% markup on it. They can only hose you so hard on labor alone.

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:
I guess FL is totally fucked, if there's only one company providing quality service for the whole state.

I'm not going to speak for the entire state, but I have a pretty deep file of experience on which to rely when commenting about Central Florida companies. How about a quote of $100 for a blown capacitor, and $50 to install it? Got that one too a few years ago. I could buy that same cap for $18 at my local Grainger. But I'm sure the installer had some fancy screwdrivers he needed to pay off.

And the guy I found to do my install isn't a unicorn. He appears to be a guy who's been in business for 10+ years who doesn't want to grow beyond a certain size because it impacts his fishing and family life. He apparently does no major advertising, and works primarily off of word of mouth, hence him being a bit hard to find. He's a completely different animal than the mega HVAC companies locally who as I noted, won't even break down their quotes for a customer.

I get it, we're all scumbags charging outrageous prices on parts for equipment you cant fix yourself.

Yet people bitch when they have to wait for us to repair their broken systems.

Have 1 quote for a York 3.5 ton.
Guy that gave the estimate said we were on the upper end of 3 ton.

Two others Ruud and Trane said 3 ton.

All of the guys said the duct work looked very good.
The York guy said the ducting would handle a 3.5 ton.

Just North of Charlotte, NC.
1st floor 1964 sq ft
2nd floor 892 sq ft

Like the idea of 3.5 ton for additional cooling on the hot days.
Would 3.5 ton for 1st floor be a bad idea?

From page one:

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:

quote:

Originally posted by kimber1911:

Thinking I would like to go with a 3.5 ton if it would work with our current air handler.
Have two rooms in the house that always stayed a bit warm. Not sure the 3 ton had adequate capacity.

When the old unit was working properly, was it running 100% of the time when the two rooms were warm?
If no, the problem is ducting.

Size the unit via a manual J load calculation.

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal: How about a quote of $100 for a blown capacitor, and $50 to install it? Got that one too a few years ago. I could buy that same cap for $18 at my local Grainger. But I'm sure the installer had some fancy screwdrivers he needed to pay off.

They're in every trade, every profession. Even a veterinarian, architect, lawyer, or an accountant. Bottom feeders.

But ... maybe this contractor was UNDERPRICING the job. Even if he had one for free, $150 does not cover the cost of starting his truck, rolling over, interacting with the customer, opening up the unit, testing, killing the power, identifying the right capacitor, checking his truck, discovering he has five different models stocked for your convenience but yours is not among them, making a trip out for the right one or substituting one which is close from his supply, making the install, restore power, test, reassemble, interact with the customer, get paid, and drive back home.

Sounds like a lot of work for $150.

$150 for a capacitor and you think that's outrageous?

Let's say that it's a $20 part they mark it up to $30. So this guy is charging $120 to diagnose the problem and fix it (which is 1/2 hr) plus the time to take your call, make work order, dispatch tech, pay tech travel to and from your house.

I would have thanked the company for doing it so cheaply.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
$150 for a capacitor and you think that's outrageous?

Let's say that it's a $20 part they mark it up to $30. So this guy is charging $120 to diagnose the problem and fix it (which is 1/2 hr) plus the time to take your call, make work order, dispatch tech, pay tech travel to and from your house.

I would have thanked the company for doing it so cheaply.

I ‘fixed’ a friend’s HVAC for the cost of lunch. He told me that to get a real service call on an out of warranty system was north of $200, and that didn’t include parts.

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
$150 for a capacitor and you think that's outrageous?

Let's say that it's a $20 part they mark it up to $30. So this guy is charging $120 to diagnose the problem and fix it (which is 1/2 hr) plus the time to take your call, make work order, dispatch tech, pay tech travel to and from your house.

I would have thanked the company for doing it so cheaply.

I ‘fixed’ a friend’s HVAC for the cost of lunch. He told me that to get a real service call on an out of warranty system was north of $200, and that didn’t include parts.

To get ANYONE skilled out it costs that much. It's simply the cost of doing business. Taxes, insurance, vehicle costs, labor costs, inventory, etc. etc. I've owned 4 successful businesses since 1998, the current one since 2004. The cost of doing business in the past 5-7 years has doubled...….expenses have simply sky rocketed between business insurance costs, other BS expenses that have popped up, health insurance costs, vehicle costs. The other thing people don't realize, is if you're paying a tech to work 8 hours a day, that tech has spent 8 hours working, driving to and from each job is part of that.

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:
I get it, we're all scumbags charging outrageous prices on parts for equipment you cant fix yourself.

Yet people bitch when they have to wait for us to repair their broken systems.

That is not what I said or insinuated. Unless you own a HVAC business in Central Florida, you haven't been included in any of my comments. And for the record, there are many things people can't fix themselves, but that shouldn't open the door for a company to screw them. Case in point, I have a very good plumber who does great work for a reasonable rate. He's not the most expensive nor is he the cheapest, but when you factor everything in, he always gets the call. He also gets continual referrals from me because of who and what he is (and/or is not).

So I guess you're telling me that its totally reasonable and appropriate for me to expect to pay a $3k+ premium for the equipment itself (its actually larger than that because the large HVAC companies can buy the equipment for less than I can), 'and' the top of the range labor rates the large HVAC companies get to install the equipment just so I can establish an ongoing relationship with a company that will charge twice what most mid-tier companies charge and will get to my service whenever they don't have a more lucrative repair to do.

And whether large company or not, the quality of the tech's I've had do work for me over the past ten years has dropped substantially. One neighbor of mine who uses a 'large' Central Florida HVAC company had a system failure (old Trane 5 ton heat pump split system) and called for service. It took three 'techs' over three days (the last one being the service manager himself) to visit the house to diagnose and fix the issue. Perhaps that's a part of why service rates are so high.

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:

quote:

Originally posted by kramden:
I know nothing about HVAC. What does the ton rating and SEER rating mean? Thanks.

Tonnage is the amount of volume a system is designed to heat/cool, while SEER rating is how efficiently the system will heat/cool that space. The higher the SEER rating, the more efficient (and expensive) the system is. Of course, the higher the SEER rating, the more complicated and expensive the system is to fix when it goes sideways. And regardless the branding on the cabinet, they all go sideways eventually.

Thanks!

Looks like it’s going to be a 3-ton Trane XL16i Heat Pump with a TAM9 Air Handler.

quote:

Originally posted by kramden:

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:

quote:

Originally posted by kramden:
I know nothing about HVAC. What does the ton rating and SEER rating mean? Thanks.

Tonnage is the amount of volume a system is designed to heat/cool, while SEER rating is how efficiently the system will heat/cool that space. The higher the SEER rating, the more efficient (and expensive) the system is. Of course, the higher the SEER rating, the more complicated and expensive the system is to fix when it goes sideways. And regardless the branding on the cabinet, they all go sideways eventually.

Thanks!

And this is how misguided information is spread. Someone who 'thinks' they know HVAC, posting inaccurate information.

Tonnage is the capacity rating of an air conditioner. The amount of BTU's which can be removed from a space in an hours time (one ton = 12,000 Btu's). Since every given space is different (insulation, windows, doors, location, ceiling height, floor/wall/roof construction, etc) volume is not an accurate measurement.

The SEER rating is the Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio - higher the SEER rating the more efficient the unit is in removing heat from a space.

HSPF Heating Seasonal Performance Factor is the efficiency rating of a unit's ability to heat a given space.

Since a higher SEER rated unit may only have larger coils or a more efficient blower motor, it doesn't always translate to complexity or expense when it comes to repairs.

Isn't tonnage from the very early days when the machines were only used to produce ice and then someone realized they could cool air as well?

My Dad was in commercial HVAC all his life before retiring in 2008 and told me of some really really old systems he saw when he was younger that used AMMONIA as a refrigerant and apparently they were really dangerous and nasty to have to service.

∆∆ propane refrigerators use amonia. Kind of scary to me how those things work. Would not want it to catastrophically fail.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
Isn't tonnage from the very early days when the machines were only used to produce ice and then someone realized they could cool air as well?

My Dad was in commercial HVAC all his life before retiring in 2008 and told me of some really really old systems he saw when he was younger that used AMMONIA as a refrigerant and apparently they were really dangerous and nasty to have to service.

I always wondered where the use of tonnage came from. Cooling is BTU rejection, and has nothing to do with weight. The NYC Aquarium had one of the last active ammonia refrigeration plants in the US. It's an excellent refrigerant, but absolutely deadly if it gets out of the system.

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
Isn't tonnage from the very early days when the machines were only used to produce ice and then someone realized they could cool air as well?

My Dad was in commercial HVAC all his life before retiring in 2008 and told me of some really really old systems he saw when he was younger that used AMMONIA as a refrigerant and apparently they were really dangerous and nasty to have to service.

I always wondered where the use of tonnage came from. Cooling is BTU rejection, and has nothing to do with weight. The NYC Aquarium had one of the last active ammonia refrigeration plants in the US. It's an excellent refrigerant, but absolutely deadly if it gets out of the system.

16,000 BTU = 1 Ton of air conditioning
32,000BTU= 2 tons a/c
Not sure how or why, but that's what it is

I have not posted on this board for a long time, but I am entertained by reading what others post. This thread is entertaining, but many of the "facts" presented are wrong. I am interested on how the install goes for Bigdeal, hopefully we will get some pictures and a complete rundown!