Townhall.com
John Stossel

Today, all Americans are told, "Go to college!"

President Obama said, "College graduation has never been more valuable."

But economist Bryan Caplan says that most people shouldn't go.

"How many thousands of hours did you spend in classes studying subjects that you never thought about again?" he asks.

Lots, in my case. At Princeton, I learned to live with strangers, play cards and chase women, but I slept through boring lectures, which were most of them. At least tuition was only $2,000. Now it's almost $50,000.

"People usually just want to talk about the tuition, which is a big deal, but there's also all the years that people spend in school when they could have been doing something else," points out Caplan in my new YouTube video.

"If you just take a look at the faces of students, it's obvious that they're bored," he says. "People are there primarily in order to get a good job."

That sounds like a good reason to go to college. But Caplan, in his new book, "The Case Against Education," argues that there's little connection between what we absorb in college and our ability to do a job.

"It's totally true that when people get fancier degrees their income generally goes up," concedes Caplan, but "the reason why this is happening is not that college pours tons of job skills into you. The reason is ... a diploma is a signaling device."

It tells employers that you were smart enough to get through college.

But when most everyone goes to college, says Caplan, "You just raise the bar. Imagine you're at a concert, and you want to see better. Stand up and of course you'll see better. But if everyone stands up, you just block each other's views."

That's why today, he says, high-end waiters are expected to have college degrees.

"You aren't saying: you, individual, don't go to college," I interjected."You're saying we as a country are suckers to subsidize it."

"Exactly," replied Caplan. "Just because it is lucrative for an individual doesn't mean it's a good idea for a country."

Caplan says if students really want to learn, they can do it without incurring tuition debt.

"If you want to go to Princeton, you don't have to apply," he points out. "Just move to the town and start attending classes."

That's generally true. At most schools you can crash college lectures for free. But almost no one does that.

"In people's bones, they realize that what really counts is that diploma," concludes Caplan.

Because that diploma is now usually subsidized by taxpayers, college costs more. Tuition has risen at triple the rate of inflation.

It's not clear students learn more for their extra tuition, but colleges' facilities sure have gotten fancier. They compete by offering things like luxurious swimming pools and gourmet dining. That probably won't help you get a job.

"If you're doing computer science or electrical engineering, then you probably are actually learning a bunch of useful skills," Caplan says. But students now often major in abstract topics like social justice, diversity studies, multicultural studies.

"But don't the liberal arts expand people's minds?" I asked. Philosophy? Literature? Isn't it all making our brains work better?

"That's the kind of thing you expect teachers to say," answered Caplan. "There's a whole field of people who have actually studied this (and) they generally come away after looking at a lot of evidence saying, 'Wow, actually it's wishful thinking.'"

A study found that a third of people haven't detectably learned anything after four years in college.

Although Caplan thinks college is mostly a scam, he says there's one type of person who definitely benefits -- professors like him.

"I'm a tenured professor," he said. "A tenured professor cannot be fired. ... You got a nice income and there are almost no demands upon your time."

Professor Caplan is only expected to teach for five hours a week.

I told him that sounded like a government-subsidized rip-off.

"Yeah. Well, I'm a whistleblower," replied Caplan.

Link

Go to a good trade school.

You'll earn well later..

You probably will not be indoctrinated by commies.

You'll be proud of yourself.

I am not sure that John did not learn a lot more both at New Trier High school and Princeton than he lets on. New Trier is a pretty exclusive public school that takes superior students and grooms them for admission to a top ten school. He is not from a blue collar working class background.

His cynicism probably comes from being privileged most of his life. I do not disagree in general with his opinion. I rather doubt that his Princeton connections caused him harm in his job seeking.

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
I am not sure that John did not learn a lot more both at New Trier High school and Princeton than he lets on. New Trier is a pretty exclusive public school that takes superior students and grooms them for admission to a top ten school. He is not from a blue collar working class background.

His cynicism probably comes from being privileged most of his life. I do not disagree in general with his opinion. I rather doubt that his Princeton connections caused him harm in his job seeking.

Stossel is a Libertarian, and almost as old as I am. When he was in school, it might well have been different than recently.

It might even have been that in some situations, in some colleges, long ago and far away, one was encouraged to think for oneself and exposed to such like concepts.

I graduated from college buying into the "better job" trope. When I graduated, I was working in a retail establishment that was family-owned, and not a single member of the family had gone to college.

My degree wasn't going to make me a member of the family.

When I finally managed to get into a technical line of work, I discovered I was working with functionally illiterate college graduates.

The "barrier to entry" had been lowered drastically.

So I decided to get a Masters Degree. Those three letters, MBA should help me advance my career, right?

So far, all I've managed to do with my degrees is decorate the wall of my office.

Which is right next to a co-worker's, who has never graduated college...

quote:

Originally posted by Birdvol:
Go to a good trade school.
You'll earn well later..
You probably will not be indoctrinated by commies.
You'll be proud of yourself.

Once upon a time... the masses were encouraged to learn a trade.
Now... the masses are encouraged to go to college.
Perhaps the day will come when that will flip again.

^^^+1

You can't get an interview without a degree.....assuming you're headed into a white collar job.

College is can be useful to become educated on particular topics.

But I think it's also a path for training the mind (topic agnostic). To make it 'stronger' in a sense. To enhance critical thinking, logic, discover new perspectives on problem solving, etc.

Just like many people don't aspire to be professional athletes yet still exercise and take lessons (golf, TKD/Karate, biking, swimming, whatever). Exercising the body and making it better - stronger with more endurance and more flexibility.

Training / developing the brain is just as important as getting an education or learning a trade. I think these are 2-3 different things.

I'm not saying go to college to get a job. Rather, college is one means to improve your brain.

Basically, if you don't have a college education, you'll be economically top ended in life pretty quickly. Even if you have a trade skill, that will only take you so far.

The flip side is that having a college education doesn't guarantee anything. You can still get top ended, and stuck in a hole. But at least you have the opportunity to not be.

quote:

It might even have been that in some situations, in some colleges, long ago and far away, one was encouraged to think for oneself and exposed to such like concepts.

Yeah. I had what used to be called a "Classical Education." We read at least one book per week in my Humanities class, and the only Anthology used in English literature was Nortons Anthology. I was rather surprised when a friend of mine who is an English Professor told me how things had changed. I taught at the college level at several universities as an adjunct Professor many years ago, and quit because of the politics and pay. The bar for admission to college had been lowered significantly. The brightest and most dedicated group of students was when I taught Federal inmates for one semester.

it depends on what your goal is

if you want to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, brain surgeon or rocket scientist, you're not going to go very far on a high school diploma

and you're likely well enough motivated to do the best you can while you're there - you see the light at the end of the tunnel

however if you skate through high school, have zero ambition, no idea of what you want to be when you may or may not grow up, then its off to college to study Art History and Women's Studies with the faint hope that in 4 years someone will see your bubbly personality and your insightful analysis and just want to hire you

you're the WRONG person for college or University, but they love to cater to you since you're so gullible to begin with that they will gladly take your money, blow smoke up your ass, fill your heads with visions of unicorns and rainbows

all the while you learn absolutely nothing of worth

those are the people that aren't even motivated enough to go to a tech school

^^^^^^^^

Spot on.

There is a need to stop using a reference that “all men (children) are created equal.”

This absurd standard has never been true, isn’t true now. Charles Murray explains all this in “Real Education.....” Every person is a unique combination of abilities, perhaps like those described in the Theory of Multiple Intelligences described by Howard Gardner. These are:

1. musical-rhythmic,
2. visual-spatial,
3. verbal-linguistic,
4. logical-mathematical,
5. bodily-kinesthetic,
6. interpersonal,
7. intrapersonal, and
8. naturalistic.

For descriptions, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...ltiple_intelligences

Despite all sorts of criticisms being leveled, it seems to me that this is a useful approach. Not everyone learns the same, as easily,or at all. It is cruel, for example, to force me to endure any but the most basic courses of study in mechanical subjects, as I can tell a plier from a screwdriver 3 out of 5 tries. I’m not going to be a mechanical engineer no matter how much I want to, or you want me to, any more than I could grow up to be a catcher for the Yankees.

Maybe more effort ought to be made to figure out these aptitudes and talents earlier and start channeling youngsters in more appropriate directions.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
Basically, if you don't have a college education, you'll be economically top ended in life pretty quickly. Even if you have a trade skill, that will only take you so far.

The flip side is that having a college education doesn't guarantee anything. You can still get top ended, and stuck in a hole. But at least you have the opportunity to not be.

Yes, like so many successful entrepreneurs today that never received a degree. They "top-ended" at 8 and 9 digit net worths.

I think the title is slightly incorrect. Nobody is against higher education. It's more to the point to say college graduates today are not receiving a higher education. Unless you graduate from Hillsdale, your grandparents received a higher education when they graduated from high school than you are receiving graduating from today's so-called institutions of higher learning.

The only thing my college education has gotten me is 2 GS grades.

I much more value the friends and memories I made than my diploma.

quote:

Originally posted by Graniteguy:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
Basically, if you don't have a college education, you'll be economically top ended in life pretty quickly. Even if you have a trade skill, that will only take you so far.

The flip side is that having a college education doesn't guarantee anything. You can still get top ended, and stuck in a hole. But at least you have the opportunity to not be.

Yes, like so many successful entrepreneurs today that never received a degree. They "top-ended" at 8 and 9 digit net worths.

I can name about 5 friends who are Mechanics, have HVAC businesses, or are plumbers. All without a degree and all making 6 figures or better.

I think we have hit the point where a good tradesman, with or without a degree can and will make a great living.

quote:

Originally posted by 95flhr:


I can name about 5 friends who are Mechanics, have HVAC businesses, or are plumbers. All without a degree and all making 6 figures or better.

I think we have hit the point where a good tradesman, with or without a degree can and will make a great living.

“Nothing beats knowing what you are doing.” - JALLEN

College Degree = Proof you will consistenly show up for work, even with a hangover

'Maybe more effort ought to be made to figure out these aptitudes and talents earlier and start channeling youngsters in more appropriate directions.'


to a certain extent I agree with this and in Junior High and High School I took several tests through the guidance department and consistently I came away with the test results showing that the highest and best use of my skills was in agriculture

funny enough, where I lived in rural Nova Scotia at the time, there were a lot of farms that were closing down because there was no one to replace the farmer

I'm glad I got two engineering degrees, one in mathematics and a diploma from a tech school in avionics