In 1965 would a SP4 be promoted directly to Sergeant or would he be required to become a Corporal first?

Well, a spec 4 is below a corporal E-4. Next rank above for a corporal is E-5. Buck sergeant.

Corporal and Specialist 4 are both E4s. Someone might move laterally from one to another if their role changed, but it wouldn't necessarily be a promotion since their pay grade wouldn't change.

In 1968 a SP4 could be promoted to Sergeant or to Specialist 5, both of which are E5s, again depending on their role/slot.

SP5+ ranks no longer exist in the Army as of the 1980s.

In 1965 corporal was an unusual Army rank that was generally limited to very few specific military occupational specialties (e.g., counterintelligence agent). The usual progression was from Private First Class to Specialist 4 to Specialist 5 or Sergeant, depending on the MOS. After that it was most common to go to Staff Sergeant, although there were few higher specialist ranks even up to SP9 (I never saw any above SP5). I recall a discussion between a senior officer and a Corporal agent and the officer said, “Corporal? That used to be one of the best ranks in the Army.” Response, “Still is, sir.” That would have been about 1969 or so.

In 1968 due (I suppose) to the rapid expansion of the Army, everyone E-5 or below who graduated from the counterintelligence agent course at Fort Holabird was promoted at least one rank. E.g., I know of one who went from Specialist 5 to E-6 Staff Sergeant with just over two years of service.
My memory about lower ranks is vague, but I believe the PFCs went to E-5 Sergeant, bypassing Corporal.

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Originally posted by Bassamatic:
Well, a spec 4 is below a corporal E-4.

“Below” would have been technically true in 1965 as a Corporal was officially an NCO, whereas a SP4 was not. That distinction was mostly of interest from a UCMJ legal standpoint about obedience to orders, assaults, etc. In practice Corporals were very rare, and at that level the chain of command was mostly based on designated positions, not rank per se. But yes, if a Finance Corps SP4 and a counterintelligence agent Corporal found themselves in a life boat, the Corporal would have the authority.

To answer the original question, when a SP4 was promoted one grade it would have been to SP5 or Sergeant, not to Corporal.

Thanks sigfreund

You are welcome. The question brought back memories of things I hadn't thought of in a long time.

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You are welcome. The question brought back memories of things I hadn't thought of in a long time

Same for me. When I started Infantry OCS at Ft Benning in Jul 1967 I was given a temporary enlisted rank of E5 for pay. On graduation to 2nd Lt ( reserve O1) we were discharged with permanent E5 rank. After Vietnam most OCS officers that had extended and were Captains (O3's) were rifted back to E5. Also in late 1967 an NCO course was started at Ft Benning which took private E2's and upon graduation became Infantry E5 Sergeants.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Anush,

Think of it as leadership vs. worker. Both are E-4, both receive the same pay, both are promotable to E-5, when both become sergeants.

The difference really comes from role. A corporal is a leader where a specialist is a work team member. Both may have sophisticated skills, but one leads and the other executes.

As noted, corporals are now pretty rare in the Army.

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Originally posted by Anush:

... Also in late 1967 an NCO course was started at Ft Benning which took private E2's and upon graduation became Infantry E5 Staff Sergeants.

When I was stationed in Alaska (1968-70) some were in the infantry companies, one may have been a junior drill sgt before. We called the program "shake and bake."

An E-4 (corporal) counterintelligence agent wasn’t likely to be leading anyone, but although I never heard it explained why a CI agent of that grade needed to be an NCO, it may have been due to their status as investigators. Whether it is still true I have no idea, but at the time Army CI had investigative jurisdiction over “national security” crimes committed by military personnel. In the mid-60s they were espionage, sabotage, sedition, and treason. Being an NCO would presumably have given an agent more legal authority during the conduct of investigations.

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Originally posted by sigfreund:
...Being an NCO would presumably have given an agent more legal authority during the conduct of investigations.

Another memory from Ft Wainwright: The one CID guy I ever met (he was on duty but not in uniform) was addressed as "Mr" and did not reveal his rank. I'm guessing that was to prevent (or reduce) intimidation from higher ranks.

No, I was not in trouble. I was visiting a married pal at his on-post quarters soon after a minor incident (vandalism maybe).

Yes, back then anyway, all counterintelligence and CID agents were normally referred to as “Mister” and their rank was not normally disclosed outside the organization. One CI agent in my unit in Korea was greatly embarrassed when he received a letter from home with “Sgt” in the address.

It was, of course, a polite fiction for the most part that they were somehow above ranks. In uniform that clearly said “US Army,” counterintelligence agents wore “US” pins on their collars rather than rank insignia. During WWII (as I understand it) they wore a distinctive patch that was the same worn by people like civilian news correspondents. Although that practice had been discontinued, I ran across that patch in a clothing sales store at one point and I believe I still have it in my stuff someplace.

The idea was to enable an agent to not be intimidated when dealing with a higher-ranking individual who might need to be persuaded to cooperate with an investigation. That fiction was usually accepted, but on occasion did result in challenges and resentments. I still recall an incident in which a captain was incensed that I wouldn’t disclose my rank to him.

A staff Sergeant is an E-6.

I was told that CPL is an awful rank to have: you have the work and responsibilities of an NCO but not the pay or authority.

I was a corporal, along with 5 others, in a security unit in Germany in the late 70's. An NCO was required for the position of Commander of the Relief, due to the fact that in the event of an attack, the COR would be required to give orders. Due to the sensitive nature of site, that was unlikely but possible. All 6 of us were promoted to Sergeant with a few months, due to the shortage of NCO's for Sergeant of the Guard. I forget who became the COR's.

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Originally posted by 400m:
In 1965 would a SP4 be promoted directly to Sergeant or would he be required to become a Corporal first?

You go directly from specialist to sergeant. But you can get promoted to corporal, it’s a lateral promotion, you’re still an E4 but you have almost nco authority, but you’re just the nco’s bitch and do all of the crap they don’t want to do, and I’ve never known a corporal who enjoyed being a corporal. So yea, you can go from specialist to corporal or specialist to sergeant, I’ve seen plenty of people go both paths, but being a corporal will help you considerably

I saw multiple CPLs. The scenario was usually they were Eligable/Selected/Placed into an E5/SGT slot but did not yet have the required school... Very common for there to be a 1-2 year waiting list for the school... This happened mostly when deployed or with new [AGR] hires. Also sometimes when we got a Soldier who was prior service or different branch but awaiting MOSQ or NCOES.

There were a few times they would be pinned or even actually promoted pending completion of the school, but this was rare and dependent on a myriad of HRC regulation and approval at the highest level... Aside from the E4-E5 promotion a spent MANY years in the next highest slot (Doing the work) and waiting for schooling and other administrative blockers to actually get promoted and pinned.

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In 1965 corporal was an unusual Army rank that was generally limited to very few specific military occupational specialties (e.g., counterintelligence agent). The usual progression was from Private First Class to Specialist 4 to Specialist 5 or Sergeant

This is my experience in the Army. Went from SP4 to Sgt....