I'm sorry for your loss.

So sorry for your loss. About 10 years ago a really good friend and co-worker committed suicide. A very talented individual. His wife left him and took their kids. When I got the news that he had passed I stayed very angry for weeks. I was mad at him and myself for not picking up on the signs. Then I moved on to grief. It was a terrible few months. I would not wish what you're going through and about to go through on my worst enemy. Stay strong.

I've lost too many people in my life to suicide. You don't get to understand why. Some leave notes.

It isn't selfishness or cowardice. It's not a "fuck you." These are easy-outs for the living to blame the dead and attempt to cope.

Here is the deal-

We all have an innate drive for self preservation. It takes a lot of pain and suffering to short circuit that. If you believe suicide is easy, try it.. To overcome our own safeguards, much less do it when we have kids or other family depending on us, this is not an easy task.

The continued idea of suicide as selfish, cowardly, and shameful is the main barrier to those at risk sharing their feelings with anyone.

That someone feels they must bear their burden, pain, and shame alone, this keeps them silent and in a cycle of self hatred that can become too much to fight.

People from all occupations and backgrounds have succumbed. The answer isn't anger, it is openness and understanding. No two are the same, except that they felt alone with no way out.

The "permanent solution to a temporary problem" trope just belittles the struggles of someone grappling with mental illness. You don't get to decide whether other peoples problems are temporary. You can't really know that.

Anger solves nothing, when it comes to suicide.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
Anger solves nothing, when it comes to suicide.

Arc, your entire post is full of truth. The statement I quote is by far the most helpful. Anger solves nothing and I found that out the hard way. It ruined my life while I held on to the anger.

Thanks to all for the sentiments, I am ok. Certainly not crawling into a bottle, was more of a private "farewell" and "sharing" a drink with the memory if a friend.

While I agree with a lot of the input, I am going to respectfully disagree with some as well.

I did not mean to suggest the act of suicide was an intentional "F you" to those left behind (though it may be in some cases....), I was speaking more of it being a functional one. It creates so much pain for those left behind to sort through and deal with.

When my nephew made that decision, I grappled with all of the "Why?" and "What could have been done different?" questions that are a natural response. I learned then, you can't find reason or rational explanation for irrational decisions and to try is futile.


It may be splitting hairs, but as far as I am concerned, the act of suicide IS selfish. I am not talking "thoughts" of suicide. Lots of folks, me included, have had those thoughts at times but not acted.

I am not sure how much more awarenesses is possible.

Look at the means we have of getting the message out today vs just 15-20 years ago and how it has changed greatly. Suicide rates continue to increase regardless. I don't believe the issue awareness or because of any shame/guilt/cowardice stigma. I believe it is because of the way our society has changed, the things we don't do anymore, the isolation of online vs in person relationships, lessening of mental "fortitude", no longer teaching people to deal with hardship in favor of coddling and and counseling.


I know everyones story is different, this man was well aware of the options. He asked people to donate to a fundraiser for Suicide Awareness in lieu of birthday gifts just a few months ago. He had literally dozens of people reach out to his cryptic posts a few days before making his decision online, by phone, and in person.

I don't get to know his "why" and I am OK with that. He made his decision, and I agree it was his to make. There is no greater liberty than deciding for yourself whether you will live or die. That doesn't mean I can't be angry with him for the decision he made, that freedom works both ways.

My initial anger has already subsided, I have experience dealing with this. I recognize it for what it is, process it, and move on. He was not such a part of my life that I would hold that anger to the point of it eating me up. I doubt his daughter will be able to process it in such fashion though. He was her world, and she his. It may not happen any time soon given her age, but some point in her future it will be there and may very well ruin her life. If that happens, her not being able to manage the anger won't be her fault, it will be his for dumping it on her. Intentional or not, actions have consequences.


My "trope" doesn't belittle anything. As long as you are around, you have a chance (maybe slight, but a chance none the less) of finding help, getting better, solving the puzzle. Once you check out, there is no turning back. You have removed any possibility of things getting better.


Being married to a woman who has battled depression, PTSD, and a host of other mental issues (including multiple instances of suicidal ideation) for the majority of her life, I do have bit of understanding and experience with some of the issues. In every single instance where she was almost to the point of making that final decision, she turned away. Sometimes on her own, sometimes by me, sometimes by others. In every single instance, what was pushing her there at that time was temporary and it passed with some help or just with some time. She isn't, and will never be, free from her demons, but the good days outnumber the bad and her history has taught her that even though she thought things could never get better, they can.


Once someone successfully commits suicide nothing can be solved.


The point of my post originally was to vent a little, but more importantly to let people know there ARE options, help IS available, and to think about the impact on those they would leave behind (note the title where it says "PSA"...). It was not to start a pissing match about what those friends and family who get left to clean up the mess (figuratively AND literally) are allowed or not allowed to think about the person who has done it.

quote:

Originally posted by 911Boss:
Snip

The point of my post originally was to vent a little, but more importantly to let people know there ARE options, help IS available, and to think about the impact on those they would leave behind (note the title where it says "PSA"...). It was not to start a pissing match about what those friends and family who get left to clean up the mess (figuratively AND literally) are allowed or not allowed to think about the person who has done it.

This is key. Help is available. To anyone reading this who is thinking about suicide, you are not weak, help is available, please talk to someone!

Boss, I am sorry you lost your friend.

I am sorry your friend is gone.

quote:

Originally posted by 911Boss:
It may be splitting hairs, but as far as I am concerned, the act of suicide IS selfish. I am not talking "thoughts" of suicide. Lots of folks, me included, have had those thoughts at times but not acted.

Selfishness is defined as concern only for oneself, or ones own pleasure/ambition. People who are depressed enough to take their own lives, believe they are alone, helpless, and worthless. It is a desperate act, not a selfish one.

Believing it is a selfish act may help you cope or rationalize it for yourself, but you're wrong. If you have your own self interests at heart, you don't seek to end your own life.

The whole idea is to not shame people into staying silent and hidden. That is why the "suicide is selfish" idea is damaging. It is about those who are still here, who need to know they are not worthless. If you tell them their suicidal thoughts are selfish, you're fueling the downward spiral.

quote:

My "trope" doesn't belittle anything. As long as you are around, you have a chance (maybe slight, but a chance none the less) of finding help, getting better, solving the puzzle. Once you check out, there is no turning back. You have removed any possibility of things getting better.

Again, the "permanent solution to temporary problem" bit is too often used by people who while well meaning, are actually demeaning the emotional pain of someone who is suffering. The reason it's a trope, is it goes hand in hand typically with calling someone who has committed suicide weak, selfish, cowardly, etc.

quote:

Once someone successfully commits suicide nothing can be solved.

The point of my post originally was to vent a little, but more importantly to let people know there ARE options, help IS available, and to think about the impact on those they would leave behind (note the title where it says "PSA"...). It was not to start a pissing match about what those friends and family who get left to clean up the mess (figuratively AND literally) are allowed or not allowed to think about the person who has done it.

The solution to minimizing suicides is a complex one, but it begins with the American attitude towards mental illness. Both the societal attitude and the medical response are in need of reform.

It's not a pissing match. It is about letting people who are still here know that they are not weak, cowardly, or selfish for the feelings churning inside. That people do value them and want to help.

It is OK to be angry, what isn't OK is keeping the status quo attitudes about suicide. Unfortunately, people who harbor the thoughts are encouraged to keep them bottled up, and that is what needs undoing, so we can reach these people before there is an attempt.

The way people are raised, this whole "SJW" nonsense, social media, these things have indeed bread a generation of fragile people. That is a separate issue from how depression and suicide should be treated. Sticking to the same old ideas about why someone takes their own life, won't save anyone from that fate.

It is a full blown crisis, the more people keep it to themselves, the fewer of them we can reach and save.

The idea of "safe spaces" has been co opted by a truly self absorbed political movement. Where there is a place for a judgment free space to talk, is when it comes to suicide. That is why rolling out "selfish, weak, and coward" has to go.

If we can let more people talk about their depression, dark thoughts, or thoughts of suicide openly, then we've made a huge step in actually reducing the number of people who seek to take their own lives. From teenagers, through police and military, to veterans and just old men.. lots of apparently strong and outwardly functional people aren't inside. We can help them by simply not shaming them recycling the same nonsense about suicide.

OP - sorry for your loss.

This thread is turning out as expected.

I have had several suicides of close friends and family

including an ex-girlfriend who changed her mind but was too late in doing it

I have come to accept that suicide is not a selfish act - thats not what the person is thinking

I had it explained that to someone who is suicidal they have reached the end point of their life - and that whatever is going on with them, this is the only way their situation will not get any worse. Of course it also means it won't get better but when you get to the point of suicide, perhaps there isn't a better.

for them the pain and anguish is over - the selfish people are the ones left behind thinking its all about them, forgetting the unfortunate victim

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
I have had several suicides of close friends and family

including an ex-girlfriend who changed her mind but was too late in doing it

I have come to accept that suicide is not a selfish act - thats not what the person is thinking

I had it explained that to someone who is suicidal they have reached the end point of their life - and that whatever is going on with them, this is the only way their situation will not get any worse. Of course it also means it won't get better but when you get to the point of suicide, perhaps there isn't a better.

for them the pain and anguish is over - the selfish people are the ones left behind thinking its all about them, forgetting the unfortunate victim

Arc has had some very good posts in this thread but this is maybe the best post I’ve ever read on the subject.

It's natural to feel anger toward a friend, a loved one, who has committed suicide. Anger is one of the faces of grief.

Here is what it is almost impossible for those left behind to grasp: the suicide was an act of love as well as an act of desperation. The one ending his life, or her life, believes that everyone will be better off with them gone. And to continue living is just to make an already unbearable situation even worse.

We can't accept any of that because we can't imagine the depth of the darkness that can envelope someone.

I say this from personal experience: it's important to forgive them. You will experience that forgiveness, when you can genuinely give it, as an immense relief, like carrying a great burden in your heart that you finally put down.