So we have the young male nuetered mix. Maybe some JRT, bordie collie, kelpie.
Smart as a whip. We have done some formal training with him. Responds great in that setting. Will do tricks on command. Will put his toys in a box on command for the most part. He has some fear issues of strangers. Some of that was from his early life that we were not part of. We have had him for 7 months. Overall very good.

So the bad is: I call him defient. He will come on command. Some of the time. Other times he will ignore the command until he is ready. This I cannot tolerate. We live in a rural setting with things that can hurt or kill him in a bat of an eye. He also does not run off, but in an instant he is around an outbuilding in the tall grass or brush and out of sight. Again, this is a no go as he will not come back on the first command.
He is young and has a keen sense of smell.

The training we went to I was not a fan of. It is the whole use food to get them to respond. I told my wife I did not like that method. I understand it but to me it is what I call this new age bullshit. But I went along with it. Now I am firmly convinced it is bullshit and counter productive to the process of the primary tool for training.

So my question is about re-training him to come on command. I know many will talk about establishing the alpha position. I am not convinced this is the issue.

quote:

The training we went to I was not a fan of. It is the whole use food to get them to respond. I told my wife I did not like that method. I understand it but to me it is what I call this new age bullshit. But I went along with it. Now I am firmly convinced it is bullshit and counter productive to the process of the primary tool for training.

Not sure I would call it New Age bullshit since it is a pretty ancient technique for rewarding the behavior you want. So, if you don't want to use food, and that is fine, you will need to find some other high value object as a treat or try to use praise. I would also use a longer training lead to work on the 'come' command so you can give him a correction with the lead and get him to head your way. good luck, sounds like a great dog.

The "new age bullshit" aspect is that food is pretty much the sole focus to get the behavior you want. I understand that it is a tool.
But this over use of food to get a dog to do or respond in every situation is bullshit and counter productive imho.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
So the bad is: I call him defient. He will come on command. Some of the time. Other times he will ignore the command until he is ready.

Sounds like a Jack Russell Terrier!

I have extensive experience with this breed. First thing you have to realize is that JRTs are working dogs and like many working dogs they are bred for certain things and one of them is to be highly independent. They're not the type of dog who naturally sits and stays in one place because you ordered him to. JRTs are jokingly referred to as the ADHD dogs and it's because they don't listen well, like taking orders and can find plenty of things that interests them. Even when trained, obeying commands are a perishable skill and must be constantly maintained to ensure they are obeyed.

There's really two types of training: positive reinforcement (the carrot) and punishment (the stick). If he has any JRT in him, punishment WILL NOT WORK. I know people who are "old school" and punish their dogs for bad behavior or for not obeying and frankly I want to slap the shit out of them and when they look at me and say "what was that for?" I'll slap the shit out of them again. After all, that's basically how they are training their dogs and a dog usually doesn't understand what exactly is expected of them when words that have no meaning are said to them then all of a sudden punishment follows.

On the other hand, dogs are highly responsive to food because it's one of the top survival motivations for them. So when food is presented and a command is given, the dog will want to learn to do what is asked of them so they get the food and they'll associate the command with the action much faster and more effectively. Once the command is learned, food rewards can be tapered off but should be given from time to time for what I call "maintenance rewards" so the dog knows that there is always the possibility of getting a reward.

I'll leave you with this thought: There's three dogs in the park. One owner calls the dog in a normal/cheerful voice and the dog comes running, tail wagging and big smiles. The next owner calls his dog in a low tone or a grunt and the dog comes but it's evident in the body language that the dog is obeying because it doesn't want to be punished. The last person calls their dog in a normal/cheerful voice and the dog just does whatever it wants and the owner eventually has to chase the dog around the park to take it home. Which owner has the type of relationship you want with your dog?

I guess Pavlov was a new age bullshit artist .......in 1890


The idea is to link the command to reward. If the dog has not learned to associate the command to the stimuli (food) then he either doesn't value the stimuli enough or has not been fully conditioned to associate the command with the reward. If the command is used generically for other desired behavior it may also lose its urgency. My suggestion would be:

Pick a command that you want to use for "come here now" and only use it for that situation. Find whatever he likes the most, a bit of hotdog for example, and start to give this command immediately followed by this high value reward. Do it often and exclusively with this command. Your problem should be solved pretty soon.

If you prefer, get a shock collar and zap the shit out of him when he doesn't comply but the need for a consistency and a singular command still apply. And a good collar won't be cheap. I would invest in a couple of packs of hotdogs first

quote:

Originally posted by TXJIM:
I guess Pavlov was a new age bullshit artist .......in 1890

Quick thread drift: Pavlov is sitting in a bar and the telephone rings as he's sipping his beer. He chokes on it and sputters "Shit! I forgot to feed the dog!."

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
The "new age bullshit" aspect is that food is pretty much the sole focus to get the behavior you want. I understand that it is a the most effective tool.
But this over use of food to get a dog to do or respond in every situation is bullshit and counter productive imho. should really make for some well behaved and highly trained dogs!

Fixed it for you

Thank you dead eye for that specific input on the jrt aspect. I have been convinced that is a big part of the issue and your expertise is insightful on that breed and their personality traits.

As I said using food, I understand. But not to the degree it is being pushed in dog training these days.

While I am a bit frustrated in his intitial ignoring my command to come. Primarily for his own safety. I can learn to work with him on it as we have done. Sounds like I am going to have to except that aspect of his breed. Which won't be easy as all of my herder's were very responsive to commands and were always within sight so concerns for their safety were nil most of the time.

We won't do any kind of a shock collar. His only punishment is grabbing a hold of his collar and when that happens he knows I am not happy with him. So that should probably end as well.

He really is a great dog. He loves my older female Ausie cattle dog. My main concern is for his safety and I guess I will continue to keep and eye on him and hope as he gets a bit older will stick closer to the homestead or he my not make it to his ripe old age.

This explains the proper way to use an electronic collar and all sorts of training info. The collar should not provide a shock or it's not being used correctly.
http://www.gundogsupply.com/ro...arlane-2015-dvd.html

This one is the hardest JRT I've ever trained. Great desire to please but will only do things if he wants to do them. He's the reason I'm a believer of positive reinforcement (food, toys) and that "let them think what you want them to do is their idea." From what I've been told, that works with kids too.

https://youtu.be/71X_MtBXL7A

If food is the only viable reinforcement for that dog, he's smarter than you. Cause there is something else he values, besides food. Prove to him that you are smarter by figuring out what his other reinforcer/s is/are.

And if your trainer hasn't mentioned other reinforcers beyond food, or "variable schedule of reinforcement", then you should tell them to go back and take the Train The Trainer Level 2 class.

You already know that you won't always be carrying treats, and he's shown he may not always respond anyway. So find more tools.

Or you can just beat him or shock him. Alpha rolling is always good.

Treats, which the dog likes, are good for initial training. Showing the dog what you want, while associating a command with it.

One needs to gradually reduce the amount of treats and reward with them randomly, usually when the dog has responded well.

Once the dog knows what is expected of him, corrections can be introduced for disobeying a command.

Dogs will go through a period where they will "forget" what they are being taught. It occurs when the behavior is being "transferred" from short term memory to long term memory. One will need to be patient, persistent and consistent during this time. This happens about a month, or so, into training. Each new thing that is taught will be subject to this transition.

There are a number of nuances involved with training. A good trainer goes a long way to producing a well trained dog.

When starting out never put yourself in a position that you can't correct the dog. This was stressed in Tom Dokkens retriever training. Granted a lab is a different dog but if you cant correct them and apply pressure on pressure off (im not talking about beating the dog) they'll see that they dont have to listen to you. That is why the book starts every training on the lead, then on the lead with a heel stick, then just the heel stick, then on the lead with a shock collar, then just the shock collar.