I’m not a rider, but my son-in-law is, and knowing that there are a lot of riders here, I thought some of you might find this interesting.

I was down at my daughter and SIL’s house over the weekend. I saw a new motorcycle and noted that it was an Indian, not something I would expect from him.

His last brand new mc was the, then new, H-D Pan America “adventure bike,” a crowded field with some exemplary bikes from BMW, KTM, Ducati, Honda, and many more. The 2021 model year was Harley’s first foray into that market, and my SIL is/was a
H-D loyalist. He traded in a much loved Road King on one.

Lots of troubles to follow. Reliability was a factor, and he enjoyed long distance rides. Part availability seemed to be a continuous issue, and competent dealership mechanics also was a problem. A career change with more time commitment and two young daughters made it easier to deal with an unreliable bike, but recently a trip he planned was aborted because of yet another issue with the Pan America.

I asked him if he ever thought of going back to a cruiser/bagger/road bike. Then didn’t hear any more about it. Turns out, he went to three different H-D dealers in an attempt to, as he put it, “make it right by giving me a deal on a cruiser as I didn’t appreciate
H-D using me as a guinea pig.” He said, “None of them were interested.”

At that point he went to two Indian dealerships and found a leftover 2024 Springfield Dark Horse, “and a hungry salesman.” He went on to say that it made the decision to part ways with H-D very easy after 16 years and 4 bikes.

He told me the Indian rides great, and MPG is “through the roof.” He hasn’t had it long, but said he thinks it’s geared lower for more torque and less top end HP, but that’s a seat-of-the-pants observation.

He goes on to say that it has ride modes that adjust throttle response and fuel/air mixtures. Sport Mode is super responsive, which makes around town more fun than the H-D Road King. Tour Mode relaxes the throttle and, he’s told, raises MPG, but that’s not yet confirmed.

I looked it up. It’s got a 116 CI engine, includes hard, locking saddlebags, cruise control, TPMS, keyless ignition and sinister looking flat green paint.

Just thought his story was interesting and thought perhaps some of you would too.

quote:

2024 Springfield Dark Horse

I've ridden one at Daytona during Bike Week, they are the Indian version of the Road King and nice motorcycles.

Link

Indian has done nice things with the current model line and are very competitive with HD, so much that HD has increased engine sizes, put in the ride mode system, Sport, Street, Rain.

He'll like the Indian, plenty of dealers around, I rode the Pan American, it's very fast, lots of clearance, didn't like the controls, layout either.

Yeah Harley's Pan America was plagued with problems for the first couple years, maybe even into 2024. Shame because I understand they're good running motorcycles, when they run. Unfortunately the problems are well known so dealers (even Harley) don't want them on trade so resale is really low. Harley has now moved production to Thailand for Pan Am and others using the Revolution motor.

Indian seems to be making some nice motorcycles now and most dealers are pretty good about discounting them.

Crazy, I was riding next to a matte green Springfield on Saturday.
Very, very nice looking bike. Got a nod from the rider while I was next to him in my little Midget

My father-in-law has a 2001 Indian Scout, which is essentially an Indian badged HD Softtail IIRC. Bike rides great & the S&S88 has good power for an older bike.

Our local Indian dealer is also a BMA & Triumph [and Royal Enfield] dealer, so lots of nice hardware to browse in there. Haven't been in since they picked up the RE line.

Interesting story and maybe one of the reasons Harley is struggling financially, lost a sure sale because they didn't want to take their junk Pan AM back in trade. I like the looks of the Pan Am but not enough to part with my 2020 R1250GSA which is a great bike.

I currently own 3 Indians.
A 2023 Roadmaster Dark Horse (similar to a streetglide for you harley folks)
A 2021 Scout Bobber (similar to a sportster)
A 2024 FTR

The Springfield Dark Horses are nice.
They have the exact same engine as my RM.
Assuming it has the same tune/stats as mine then it'll have (ballpark) 75hp and 125tq.

Only thing I really don't like about the SF is the location of the speedometer.
I feel like I'd be looking too far down to see how fast I'm going.
All in all I think the bike needs a tech update to bring it into this decade.
Move the speedo up onto the handlebars and maybe make it the digital 4"rc one like the new scouts and chiefs have.
Also, update the 4"rc to actually allow route planning instead of just point to point gps.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: creslin,

That's a nice variety, creslin.
My FIL has his 2001 Scout & a Victory Cross Country Tour [don't recall the year on that one], so a bit similar to your RM & Scout for purpose.

I ride a 2016 Indian Scout. It was an easy decision as it was a better bike in pretty much every aspect compared to the HD 1200 Sportster. HD has since done a major upgrade with the Sportster S and it'd be a harder decision.

If I were to buy another bike:

Fixed fairing bagger - I'd rather have the Indian Challenger instead of the Road Glide

Moving fairing (i.e. attached to handlebars) bagger - previously, I would've said Street glide over Chieftan since the Chieftan was an air-cooled motor which I don't want for hot, humid Houston. However, they just came out with a "powerplus" version that is liquid cooled.

I like metallic, glossy paint, and HD has amazing paint. Unfortunately, Indian has become obsessed with matte paint so they have less options on metallic, glossy paint.

Now, it's time to interject a little rivalry humor into the thread.
Q: What is the difference between a Harley Davidson and a vacuum?
A: The location of the dirtbag

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Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity

DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer.

Interesting. I’ve never been fond of Hardly Ablesons because of friends that had them, and the reliability nightmares to go with them. They’d leak oil, and were the polar opposite of JDM bikes. Sounds like he found out the hard way. We’d always say “Twice the price for half the performance.” Other people swear by them though and that’s fine. I don’t really care one way or the other what other people do with their money.

I’ve never heard of MPG being a big topic as it pertains to riding. Reliability certainly but not MPG. My bikes are tuned and I use that midrange and top end as much as possible. 25 MPG is usual unless it’s a track day and the MPG goes down some more. But I guess I can understand it if doing the Iron Butt type riding. Better MPG would mean less stopping but honestly when riding hard I like the gas breaks. Use the restroom, stretch, hydrate, and eat if need be. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Some people enjoy freeway cruising long distance, others of us prefer leaning that thing over and doing everything we can to tear up the rubber on the side of the tire vs. the middle.

Prefontaine, the Harleys he owned prior to the Pan Am seemed to be just fine for reliability, and I don’t recall him talking about oil leaks with them either.

He was big into Iron Butt for awhile there. I think our daughter finally convinced him that the whole premise is insane. I remember well the 24 hour period during which he completed a 1000 miler. The Road King he road then seemed to be utterly reliable.

He does still enjoy long trips though: a loop around Lake Superior, and a ride back east (from Colorado) to Tail of the Dragon. Hopefully, the insane distances in one day are behind him, with a wife and two little girls at home.

I had a 2017 Roadmaster. While I loved the bike,looks,performance etc. Went on several long rides I couldn't overcome the heat coming off the rear cylinder, removed the cats in the exhaust,leather under seat extender,tried the vents every which way and it was still hotter than hell. Sold it when I got to Florida..

The Indian's are great bikes, dealer network is a bit lacking, but if you have a good dealer close by it is a big plus.

The new Harley touring and Cruiser bikes are very good, tons of power and improvements of the last 5 years or so. I really like my trouble free Heritage.

quote:

Interesting. I’ve never been fond of Hardly Ablesons because of friends that had them, and the reliability nightmares to go with them. They’d leak oil, and were the polar opposite of JDM bikes. S

So basically you rode with HD riders back in what the 60's and 70's,

I've been riding HD's since the late 90's and not one of mine or the many people that ride them with me have ever sprung any oil leaks or had any reliability issues.

70+K on my 00 Heritage
120+ on my three Hardley Ablesons since
40+K on my current RG

None have leaked oil, none broke down, none back to the dealer for warranty defects or repairs.

The Pan America is a big change in HD direction, with the EPA choking down on noise, pollution etc HD, Indian and all air cooled bikes are under the gun.

Come down to Daytona at Bike Week, we'll meet and take out some Indian, HD, and JDM's even some Germans have test rides.

Think you'll be surprised at some of the HD bikes.

Last two years I worked in Harley dealers until ‘22 I’d cringe when someone came in wanting Pan American accessories and on a lesser basis repair parts.

Extended wait times, no promise dates, incomplete/damaged items. In all fairness a lot of this was post Covid era problems but you’d think that with a new product line they’d put their best foot forward. But under Zeitz my opinion was and still is that a personal agenda was being pushed, that of Harley branded E-bikes and the Livewire platform and those being spun off into its own company.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:

quote:

Interesting. I’ve never been fond of Hardly Ablesons because of friends that had them, and the reliability nightmares to go with them. They’d leak oil, and were the polar opposite of JDM bikes. S

So basically you rode with HD riders back in what the 60's and 70's,

I've been riding HD's since the late 90's and not one of mine or the many people that ride them with me have ever sprung any oil leaks or had any reliability issues.

70+K on my 00 Heritage
120+ on my three Hardley Ablesons since
40+K on my current RG

None have leaked oil, none broke down, none back to the dealer for warranty defects or repairs.

The Pan America is a big change in HD direction, with the EPA choking down on noise, pollution etc HD, Indian and all air cooled bikes are under the gun.

Come down to Daytona at Bike Week, we'll meet and take out some Indian, HD, and JDM's even some Germans have test rides.

Think you'll be surprised at some of the HD bikes.

My FIL's Scout [2001 S&S88] leaks a tiny bit of oil from a breather filter on the right side, but otherwise runs great. I'm always a bit lean cautious on it, as it's got fixed pegs & don't want to lean it too far & get a surprise.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:

quote:

Interesting. I’ve never been fond of Hardly Ablesons because of friends that had them, and the reliability nightmares to go with them. They’d leak oil, and were the polar opposite of JDM bikes. S

So basically you rode with HD riders back in what the 60's and 70's,

I've been riding HD's since the late 90's and not one of mine or the many people that ride them with me have ever sprung any oil leaks or had any reliability issues.

70+K on my 00 Heritage
120+ on my three Hardley Ablesons since
40+K on my current RG

None have leaked oil, none broke down, none back to the dealer for warranty defects or repairs.

The Pan America is a big change in HD direction, with the EPA choking down on noise, pollution etc HD, Indian and all air cooled bikes are under the gun.

Come down to Daytona at Bike Week, we'll meet and take out some Indian, HD, and JDM's even some Germans have test rides.

Think you'll be surprised at some of the HD bikes.

We won’t talk about the cam bearing and chain tensioner problems on the first generation TC motors…..

Lost a front outer cam bearing on my ‘02 FLHTPI in ‘07 at 15k, entailed a overhaul as all the bearing material circulated through the motor, almost wiped the crank out.

Did the S/E hydraulic tensioner upgrade to the bike in 2020, about 30k on the engine job from 2007. The spring tensioners were worn enough to entail replacing at that time.

Yep, HD had had issues, just like all manufacturing companies, if you look close at the dealers for JDM, Indian, Harley, they all have service departments full of motorcycles, some are getting general maintenance, others repairs or warranty work. No company is immune


The cam bearing issue on the 99 TC's was problematic, but that was the first year of production for a TC engine and those tensioners did wear faster on some than others.

HD had EPA issues with keeping the gear drive setup like the Evo' before it. IIRC the chain drive was designed to reduce engine noise to help keep the bike in compliance, gear drives are noisy and it's the cumulative noise total that the EPA looks at.

I pulled the chain drive out and put in a gear drive on my 00 TC, chained the bearing out that was problematic. mainly because it was upgrade time to the 95 and put in new cams.

But it never leaked oil or left me on the side of the road as implied.

In the process of buying my second Indian. I really like them.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:


So basically you rode with HD riders back in what the 60's and 70's,

I've been riding HD's since the late 90's and not one of mine or the many people that ride them with me have ever sprung any oil leaks or had any reliability issues.

70+K on my 00 Heritage
120+ on my three Hardley Ablesons since
40+K on my current RG

None have leaked oil, none broke down, none back to the dealer for warranty defects or repairs.

The Pan America is a big change in HD direction, with the EPA choking down on noise, pollution etc HD, Indian and all air cooled bikes are under the gun.

Come down to Daytona at Bike Week, we'll meet and take out some Indian, HD, and JDM's even some Germans have test rides.

Think you'll be surprised at some of the HD bikes.

Florida, the land of straight lines? No thanks. I do much different riding than you. I lean a bike over and use a credit card sized contact patch on the front and rear tires. You know real riding I’m also in a full suit so I wouldn’t fit in down there at Daytona
I’m bored senseless riding in a straight line. No corners, I’m not bothering with it.

In all seriousness I’ve ridden them before. Indians, BMW’s, name it. Even taken out a number of Zero motorcycles, which I’d definitely call real zeroes. My friends that I’d do track days with, that also owned HD cruisers, yes they did have reliability problems. They’d bitch about it and I’d ask them why they didn’t bring Bertha to the track and do the track day on it. Cruisers are too heavy, lack power, and brakes for the kind of riding I do but each to their own. I run dual rotors up front, Brembo calipers, rotors, and master cylinder. 170 RWHP and 400 pounds and change. I do some MX work as well on my 450. 125, 450, 1000, and a 1200. My next will be an RSV4 Factory. Deals Gap, sure, Florida, or Sturgis, never.

The expression when I bought my 1st HD an AMF 1977

Hardley Davison made of tin
Ride them out, and push them in.