I drew on a road rager last year. They followed me nearly home and I wound up getting blocked in with the front bumpers of each vehicle nearly touching. Before they could get out of their car with the short baseball bat they made I knew they had, I drew my Glock, held it up so it could clearly seen and then slapped it down on the dashboard. Everything stopped. We stared at each other for several minutes. I’ve never been glared at with such burning hatred. Eventually, sense took hold over the rager and they backed up and left.

I’ve read and been told a thousand times so many different ways that you should only draw if you’re actually about to shoot someone. I think it’s nonsense. Brandish a ball bat at me and make me think you’re going to get out of your car and come after me with it, and I’m going to draw. I never aimed or even touched it again except to reholster it, but boy did it de-escalate the everloving out of that situation. If you think some shit is about to go down that means you’re about to take a beating or worse, pull the damn gun. Don’t wait until you’re taking damage.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
If you're carrying a gun, and someone threatens force to take your wallet, how do you know he won't take your gun as well if you submit? And what will he do with that gun? If you carry, be prepared to shoot someone who threatens you with deadly force, or don't carry.

This and what Skins2881 said.

quote:

Originally posted by H&K-Guy:
At what point do you pull your firearm and defend yourself?

Most here view firearms as a means of self-defense. Some view them as recreational tools. Some use them to protect themselves from predatory animals. Some hunt. Some just collect them.

There are eleventy bazillion reasons to own firearms in the world today. But what if you encounter armed assailant(s)?

Do you just hand over your possessions? Or do you use a gun to defend yourself, especially if:

You are carjacked? (“Get out of the car! Give me the keys!”)
You are mugged alone somewhere? (Wallet, watch, and phone, NOW!)
You are with your family or friends somewhere? (Wallets, watches, and phones, NOW!”)
How about if your home is invaded in the night? (You hear glass breaking or someone moving through your house.)

Many of you will disagree with me, but if I have to pull a gun, then several other things have gone wrong first. My property is not worth my life. Nor is it worth killing another person for. They can have it. There are only a few exceptions to this.

Now when you threaten my family or friends with bodily harm, murder, or rape, then we have a problem.

What are your thoughts? Where do you fit into this?

H&K-Guy

At what point? I don't know. Really. I'll tell you when it happens, and if I'll live to tell the tale.

The slight problem with your line of thinking in red is this. You simply have no ideas, even if you cooperate fully, that they won't kill you. There are plenty of documented stories of victims being killed after they have cooperated with the scums. Btw, you shoot to stop, not to kill.

^^^About 12-15 years ago I wrote a magazine article about a Vietnamese grocery store that was robbed by three black teens in Harrisburg, PA. There was complete video from the surveillance cameras. The teens enter and draw guns. The wife opens the register and completely empties it. Lifts the draw and removes some bills under it. Hands everything over. The husband stands with his hands up.

They take the money, and head for the door. Two exit, and the third turns-- and shoots the man in the head.

Gang initiation.

I'm a 6' tall 200lbs+ man with a frown and not much to say. If someone wants to fuck with me, they've got to be despite enough to kill I act accordingly.

This beautiful young lady was a cashier during a strong arm robbery that she complied with and handed over everything in the register, only to have the guy slit her throat:



http://komonews.com/news/local...robbery-and-stabbing

https://www.kiro7.com/news/man...ton-robbery/43526719

quote:

At what point do you pull your firearm and defend yourself?

I think you have to be there to know.
You can't pre-determine your options too much.
Fear of life or similar harm ought to be your guideline.

I would throw out there that bodily harm or life threatening situations can be different from person to person. You as a Black Belt (hypothetical) may not feel the same level of harm as I, someone that’s had a broken back and two fusions. I’m not going to kill someone cause they stole my lawn mower, but I most certainly am not getting into a physical brawl if I can draw my weapon. YMMV. As has been said many times here, cooperation does not mean your safe. I’ll never forget going into the house of an older couple as a paramedic once. They had been robbed and murdered. They were hog tied beside each other on the floor with their throats cut...they clearly didn’t put up a fight.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:

At what point? I don't know. Really. I'll tell you when it happens, and if I'll live to tell the tale.

The slight problem with your line of thinking in red is this. You simply have no ideas, even if you cooperate fully, that they won't kill you. There are plenty of documented stories of victims being killed after they have cooperated with the scums. Btw, you shoot to stop, not to kill.

12131, you bring up some good points. Now I have some things I have to think about.

H&K-Guy

quote:

My property is not worth my life. Nor is it worth killing another person for. They can have it.

It is NEVER only about the value of your property. It is , at very least, about a transgression of your human rights and your sense of safety and security. It is also about the overall generall civil order in our society.

The problem with all this is we live in a modern litigious society. People like Jeff Cooper said not only is it you're right to defend yourself, but more importantly it's your duty to society. Understood and agreed. Ideally I'd like to see every single robber DEAD! We don't need them for a single thing.

The down side in our modern times is, if you shoot someone, kill them or not, your life is probably ruined. Like they say, you can beat the wrap but you can't beat the ride.

Use common sense. I mean really. Pie in the sky what if's are great and all, but if you use a hint of common sense it makes all the what if's completely unnecessary.

Use common sense.
Refuse to be a victim by doing simple things like locking doors, keeping your fucking NOSE out of your phone, paying attention, not going bad places at bad times when bad things happen, etc
Don't use a gun just because you have it.
Don't escalate confrontation because of your ego.
A good run is always better than a bad stand.
Always have an escape route.


Seriously. If you do simple things, it often wards off the bad things. A small percentage of the time it doesn't. But, common sense will still get you a long way there too.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
what he said.

Watch the active self protection YouTube page. (MUST WATCH)
https://m.youtube.com/channel/...vF2ImeNWh84mw/videos

You'll formulate your own plans after watching all the valuable lessons learned from real life footage.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

I’ve read and been told a thousand times so many different ways that you should only draw if you’re actually about to shoot someone.

I don't have an issue with that, nor do I believe you must shoot if you draw your weapon - BUT, you must be prepared to in case de-escalation fails.

And if those guys had gotten out of the car with the bat, it certainly might have been time to shoot someone.

I’m glad it didn’t go down that way. For a bit, there, it was really looking I was going to have to do the thing none of us wants to do.

quote:

Originally posted by bubbatime:
Watch the active self protection YouTube page. (MUST WATCH)
https://m.youtube.com/channel/...vF2ImeNWh84mw/videos

You'll formulate your own plans after watching all the valuable lessons learned from real life footage.

Wow. so much to learn. So much to learn.

H&K-Guy

quote:

Originally posted by bubbatime:
Watch the active self protection YouTube page. (MUST WATCH)
https://m.youtube.com/channel/...vF2ImeNWh84mw/videos

You'll formulate your own plans after watching all the valuable lessons learned from real life footage.

Care to link a video or three that are at the top of list to watch. That's a lot of videos to choose from.

There’s probably some standouts that others would recommend, but honestly, each video and situation is so different that it really is worth your time to just go down the rabbit hole on that channel.

I constantly wonder how my judgement will be affected while experiencing an adrenaline dump, panic, hopefully not rage....and a bladder dump all at the same time. I try to stay focused on awareness of my surroundings and carrying a mouse gun in my front pocket, primary in the shoot me first fanny pack. I can look totally relaxed and nonthreatening and have a gun in a firing grip. Be cordial to all and have a plan to take them out if needed.

I think I would tend to draw early but not reveal or point unless things were real dire. Since you really don't know what the other person is capable of, it seems it would be prudent or proactive to act at the first sign of aggression towards you or others.

And if I was in a rage....see me on CNN. Hurt my loved ones..pray you expire of gunshot wounds..come in my house and you deal with my wife.