Most here view firearms as a means of self-defense. Some view them as recreational tools. Some use them to protect themselves from predatory animals. Some hunt. Some just collect them.

There are eleventy bazillion reasons to own firearms in the world today. But what if you encounter armed assailant(s)?

Do you just hand over your possessions? Or do you use a gun to defend yourself, especially if:

You are carjacked? (“Get out of the car! Give me the keys!”)
You are mugged alone somewhere? (Wallet, watch, and phone, NOW!)
You are with your family or friends somewhere? (Wallets, watches, and phones, NOW!”)
How about if your home is invaded in the night? (You hear glass breaking or someone moving through your house.)

Many of you will disagree with me, but if I have to pull a gun, then several other things have gone wrong first. My property is not worth my life. Nor is it worth killing another person for. They can have it. There are only a few exceptions to this.

Now when you threaten my family or friends with bodily harm, murder, or rape, then we have a problem.

What are your thoughts? Where do you fit into this?

H&K-Guy

Are you being threatened with physical harm if you do not turn over said items? Are you being threatened with a deadly weapon? Are you 100% certain they won't use said weapon after they have your possessions? All of these take the "defense of property" idea to different place.

Robbery/mugging is very different thing than theft. Even though I was born and raised in Texas, I would not use deadly force if someone was walking off with something of mine.

Threaten me and mine with the possibility of harm. I don't care if it's a Micky Mouse watch, that's a whole other prospect entirely.

Real simple. If my life or the person I'm with's life is being threatened.

That's really the only human emotion that lets you kill another human being.

That's why these shoot em in the leg threads are ridiculous. Either you felt like your life was in danger or not. If it was what are you doing aiming at someones leg.

When you feel your life is threatened. It's honestly up to the individual.

When it's worse not to.

When a reasonable person would be in fear of death or substantial bodily harm

That’s the legal standard, and it is so for a reason. When you feel that way, that’s when you do it

It could (or could not) be true for almost all of your examples

The problem with your theory is that you are assuming that once you hand over your belongings, they will leave you in peace. You can't count on that.

I think that what you do depends on the circumstance as well. If someone is pointing a gun at your face, then going for your weapon is pretty much guaranteed to get you killed. At least that is my opinion. If the bad guy is waving his gun around, you just might find an opportunity to pull yours.

quote:

Originally posted by H&K-Guy:


Do you just hand over your possessions? Or do you use a gun to defend yourself, especially if:

You are carjacked? (“Get out of the car! Give me the keys!”)
You are mugged alone somewhere? (Wallet, watch, and phone, NOW!)
You are with your family or friends somewhere? (Wallets, watches, and phones, NOW!”)
How about if your home is invaded in the night? (You hear glass breaking or someone moving through your house.)


...

Now when you threaten my family or friends with bodily harm, murder, or rape, then we have a problem.

...

H&K-Guy

What's that article by the Retired Marine or by Marko Kloos: "Why the gun is Civilization"? It's pretty much perfect article, especially for what you've laid out.

A person who's car jacking you isn't asking you politely "Excuse me, sir, but may I have your fine automobile?"
A person who's mugging you isn't asking you politely "My good man, can I please have your watch and wallet?"
A person who's breaking into your house in the middle of the night probably isn't there to snuggle you gently.

It's more often done at the end of a gun or a knife, or "disparity of force" in some fashion.
That equals a threat. They are using force to take some of your shit from you.
If it's just you, then there's a threat to you, if your family or friends are around it presents a threat to you and to them as well.

I don't know how many other things have to go wrong when someone is sticking a gun in your face and yanking you out of your car.

It's well worth the read:
https://munchkinwrangler.wordp...gun-is-civilization/

quote:

Originally posted by CPD SIG:

quote:

Originally posted by H&K-Guy:


Do you just hand over your possessions? Or do you use a gun to defend yourself, especially if:

You are carjacked? (“Get out of the car! Give me the keys!”)
You are mugged alone somewhere? (Wallet, watch, and phone, NOW!)
You are with your family or friends somewhere? (Wallets, watches, and phones, NOW!”)
How about if your home is invaded in the night? (You hear glass breaking or someone moving through your house.)


...

Now when you threaten my family or friends with bodily harm, murder, or rape, then we have a problem.

...

H&K-Guy

What's that article by the Retired Marine or by Marko Kloos: "Why the gun is Civilization"? It's pretty much perfect article, especially for what you've laid out.

A person who's car jacking you isn't asking you politely "Excuse me, sir, but may I have your fine automobile?"
A person who's mugging you isn't asking you politely "My good man, can I please have your watch and wallet?"
A person who's breaking into your house in the middle of the night probably isn't there to snuggle you gently.

It's more often done at the end of a gun or a knife, or "disparity of force" in some fashion.
That equals a threat. They are using force to take some of your shit from you.
If it's just you, then there's a threat to you, if your family or friends are around it presents a threat to you and to them as well.

I don't know how many other things have to go wrong when someone is sticking a gun in your face and yanking you out of your car.

It's well worth the read:
https://munchkinwrangler.wordp...gun-is-civilization/

Interesting link. Now my brain hurts. The relationship between violence(force) and reason is interesting. Looks like a good read.

H&K-Guy

There is no real answer to your question. Every situation is going to be different and until faced with the circumstances of an encounter, you can't really answer the question asked.

Every scenario is unique, and every one will not necessarily involve you, or your loved ones directly.

I’m prepared as an LEO to use deadly force in defense of anyone under the threat of deadly force or severe bodily harm. But it would have to be crystal clear that such force was indeed imminent and not merely a possibility.

In any situation where me or my family was threatened, I would not hesitate to use any violence in the extreme.

If I could safely get a gun into play in a robbery, mugging, burglary, carjacking, etc where harm is possible, but not practicable, I would and leave the outcome to the perp.

I don't know, and I hope never to find out.

Philosophically, it would be if I genuinely feared for my life or there was ANY threat of physical violence to a loved one.

Theft of property without immediate threat of violence is why I pay for insurance. Things can be replaced.

Defense of strangers is an area I think about regularly, and have not come to a firm conclusion. Too many variables, too many ways for it to turn into a shit show. My thinking is that if it were clear-cut enough and/or threatened a woman or child, I'd intervene. Won't know until it happens and I devoutly hope I never have to make that decision.

Edit to add: Home invasion is a no-brainer for me. There is NO reason for ANYONE to be forcing their way into my home. My family knows better and will call first, anyone else is fair game. Daytime might be met with a firearm in hand, after dark it will be shoot first and figure it out later. Anybody that rings my doorbell after dark will be met by an armed homeowner as well.

An easy question to ask, a difficult one to answer definitively. The exact point at which you pull a gun and are ready to shoot is a grey area. One such area is when the attacker has no weapons. However, for example, a solid punch to the head can leave you with a TBI, even kill. I think that meets the definition of "great bodily harm." I'm too young to die but too old to take a beating. Should I wait to be cold-cocked or curb-stomped first? I think not. But at what point does it become clear that you're going to get a beatdown?

quote:

Originally posted by PHPaul:

Defense of strangers is an area I think about regularly, and have not come to a firm conclusion. Too many variables, too many ways for it to turn into a shit show.

This is even more difficult to answer than if only you are in danger. Unless you saw the events leading up to the situation, you could easily misread it. The woman you thought was being raped might actually be consensual. The guy you thought was getting a beatdown might actually be resisting arrest from plain-clothes cops. The child being dragged into a car might be trying to get out of going to school or getting a shot at the doctor's office.

quote:

Originally posted by Kevbo:
When a reasonable person would be in fear of death or substantial bodily harm

That’s the legal standard, and it is so for a reason. When you feel that way, that’s when you do it

It could (or could not) be true for almost all of your examples

I don't know that this (fear of death or substantial bodily harm) is the legal standard anymore.
In Fl for example, use of deadly force is authorized to stop a forcible felony and in the defined forcible felonies section carjacking is listed.

It does not say carjacking, when your life is in danger; it just says carjacking is grounds for the use of deadly force.

I think this is why the "just because you can does not necessarily mean you should" or the "Get to vs have to" threads pop up all the time.

If you're carrying a gun, and someone threatens force to take your wallet, how do you know he won't take your gun as well if you submit? And what will he do with that gun? If you carry, be prepared to shoot someone who threatens you with deadly force, or don't carry.

Reasonable fear of great bodily harm or worse to ones self or others is the standard that I don't think has actually 'legally' changed.

No, your property is not worth using deadly force, but when someone is threatening you to get that property then that changes the decision. At least that is my internet legal opinion. And it is worth the paper it is written on.

Each one of us prepares in our own way for that day if it were to come. We run our guns, gear, and scenarios in our minds what would we do? Like posted you can't answer that as each threat situation is different. While I'm prepared to do "battle" I try to avoid trouble with situational awareness at all times no matter where I am. One should never think they are safe even going down the same street each day, using the same gas station, walking into the liquor store or 7-11, or entering your own home. Be Aware. Chris

when you see two brothers and a buddy duck walking twords a 50 y.o. lady ,in the parking lot of the corner super market.

She has her back to them .

as you approach you see a Mk 2 ruger come up to her and the biggest guy puts an arm around her neck and the gun to her temple,

the brother climbs across the passenger seat to the drivers side.

so you pull in front of her car to abate any departure.

brother with the woman can not get her in to the back seat , because of all the groceries .

by now they now they have figured out that they are not going anywhere so the driver gets out and start running, while the gun man is pointing at you and screaming, you do not hear anything that he says.


now they have thrown the lady down and are running to the empty end of the lot.

you hop back in to your car to follow them , two other customers are headed to the traumatized victim .

you reach the get away forth person in a waiting car at the same time they do, the gun is still being pointed at you , you do not hear what they are screaming at you.

you reach for a pen to jot down the license plate and of course there is none available.

you remember the plate number but can not get the make and model of the car.

you see it reach the street and head east bound , and although your cell phone is out you are shaking so badly that you can not dial 9-1-1.

you drive back to the victim repeating the tag number, over and over , you think 12 minutes have passed.

but after hollering at the dispatcher all of the information , you lean against your car to collect yourself.

total elapsed time was under 2 minutes .

It's important to remember that criminals do not think like normal people. The rules of a polite society do not apply to them. A violent criminal will stab you, shoot you, or generally just fuck you up because they can. If someone is trying to rob, car jack, mug me, etc. I can only assume they are willing to end my life and should act accordingly.

quote:

Originally posted by BadDogPSD:
It's important to remember that criminals do not think like normal people. The rules of a polite society do not apply to them. A violent criminal will stab you, shoot you, or generally just fuck you up because they can. If someone is trying to rob, car jack, mug me, etc. I can only assume they are willing to end my life and should act accordingly.

Agreed

Everyone would like to think that if they just hand over their stuff the criminals will just walk away happy with their score. 50% of the time this will be correct, they just want to steal something from the weakest person they can find and get away as fast as possible. The other 50% of the time they are crazy, depraved, evil, desperate, or in an drug induced rage.

While 99% of us will never look forward to the day you might be put in this position, I implore you to do whatever is necessary to protect yourself and your family. I would need to know for sure they won't kill me when I comply, and how would you? Plus how do you empty your pockets without exposing the fact you're carrying?

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