GI or SGI clubs will help correct for mild mishits, but, there's only so much they can do.

E.g.: I can tell when my strike is a bit off-center with my Callaway MAVRIK Max driver. I can feel it. And I know the mild fade that results would be a slice with a non-GI driver. But I can still slice with it if I get it wrongly enough.

I appreciate the wedge advice and went with the Cleveland options after a fitting.

Will I need a 4-iron and a 4 hybrid? I tried them out today at a local store, and I was a lot more consistent with the iron, and it went 5-10 yards further. I'm strange, but I feel a lot more confident with it. My bag makeup is also weird because of upgrades with a 3 hybrid and a 3 wood.

I went to a nearby driving range over my lunch break -- muni course with a mats in the practice stations. The guy behind me was a respectable ball striker, and I knew by the sound that he was hitting blades. We talked -- he had brand new Wilson Staff through 5i, with a Wilson CB 4i. Some of the nicest sounding clubs I've ever been around. My old cavity backs have a mid-pitched "thwack" with pure strikes. His were a quieter, lower-pitched "thunk". He let me hit both the 4i CB and the 5i blade. 115 gram TT x100 shafts -- which felt great.

I took 3 shots with the 4i from a short tee. Slight heal strike had ball speed of 122 mph, which OK but not my best. Then I chunked one badly, with centered impact on the 5th or 6th groove. Final was a slight toe strike with 124 ball speed -- good, but just a tad off. Pretty forgiving for a near blade, actually.

Two swings with the 5i from the deck -- 1 each just toe and heel side of center. 118 and 119 ball speeds. This club feels and sounds nice. I really don't have the skills for longer blade irons, but this was still fun. I wasn't punished too much for strikes about 1/4" off the sweet spot.

I said I like the Titleist T100 and Callaway Apex Pro for new irons, but am leaning towards Taylor P770 or Ping i230. He said any of the four should be great for me -- just comes down to preference and performance.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackks:
Will I need a 4-iron and a 4 hybrid? I tried them out today at a local store, and I was a lot more consistent with the iron, and it went 5-10 yards further. I'm strange, but I feel a lot more confident with it.

You should look at the webz for comparisons between long irons, hybrids, and lofted fairway woods. I will start with the assumption that the 4i and 4H you tried had the same loft.

For clubs geared towards better players, the 4i will have a heavier and slightly shorter steel shaft. The 4H will have a lighter and longer graphite shaft.

Irons will almost always launch higher with higher spin. Hybrids will launch at a lower angle, with less spin, and higher ball speed. The higher ball speed is due to faster club head speed and higher potential smash factor. All of this contributes to longer carry with the hybrid. A challenge with hybrids is that their lower spin and lower descent angle reduces their ability to stop a ball on the green.

My 24 degree 4i is a 200-210 yard club at my altitude off the deck. From a short tee, I might be able to stretch it to 220. My 24 degree 4H is good for a good 10 yards more.

Many 4i tend to have a slight fade bias. Many 4H clubs tend to have a slight draw bias. Shafts make a crapload of difference.
Much depends on your swing and your club preferences.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
I went to a nearby driving range over my lunch break -- muni course with a mats in the practice stations. The guy behind me was a respectable ball striker, and I knew by the sound that he was hitting blades. We talked -- he had brand new Wilson Staff through 5i, with a Wilson CB 4i. Some of the nicest sounding clubs I've ever been around. My old cavity backs have a mid-pitched "thwack" with pure strikes. His were a quieter, lower-pitched "thunk". He let me hit both the 4i CB and the 5i blade. 115 gram TT x100 shafts -- which felt great.

I took 3 shots with the 4i from a short tee. Slight heal strike had ball speed of 122 mph, which OK but not my best. Then I chunked one badly, with centered impact on the 5th or 6th groove. Final was a slight toe strike with 124 ball speed -- good, but just a tad off. Pretty forgiving for a near blade, actually.

Two swings with the 5i from the deck -- 1 each just toe and heel side of center. 118 and 119 ball speeds. This club feels and sounds nice. I really don't have the skills for longer blade irons, but this was still fun. I wasn't punished too much for strikes about 1/4" off the sweet spot.

I said I like the Titleist T100 and Callaway Apex Pro for new irons, but am leaning towards Taylor P770 or Ping i230. He said any of the four should be great for me -- just comes down to preference and performance.

Do you take a launch monitor like the R10 to the range with you? It's nice you know your ball speed even outside at a municipal range. I've also thought about getting the Arccos sensors.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

You should look at the webz for comparisons between long irons, hybrids, and lofted fairway woods. I will start with the assumption that the 4i and 4H you tried had the same loft.

For clubs geared towards better players, the 4i will have a heavier and slightly shorter steel shaft. The 4H will have a lighter and longer graphite shaft.

Irons will almost always launch higher with higher spin. Hybrids will launch at a lower angle, with less spin, and higher ball speed. The higher ball speed is due to faster club head speed and higher potential smash factor. All of this contributes to longer carry with the hybrid. A challenge with hybrids is that their lower spin and lower descent angle reduces their ability to stop a ball on the green.

My 24 degree 4i is a 200-210 yard club at my altitude off the deck. From a short tee, I might be able to stretch it to 220. My 24 degree 4H is good for a good 10 yards more.

Many 4i tend to have a slight fade bias. Many 4H clubs tend to have a slight draw bias. Shafts make a crapload of difference.
Much depends on your swing and your club preferences.

I went with the Wilson D9 Forged, so the loft is 21.5, and the 425 4H is 22.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackks:
Do you take a launch monitor like the R10 to the range with you? It's nice you know your ball speed even outside at a municipal range.

I went with the Wilson D9 Forged, so the loft is 21.5, and the 425 4H is 22.

I have a Garmin G80 in the bag at almost all times. The GPS is great. The club and ball speed numbers are very good -- equal to or 1 mph slower than figures from GC Quad, GC2, and Trackman. The G80's carry distances are quite close as long as I add 6% for the difference between sea level and Colorado air densities.

I have borrowed a buddy's R10 on occasion for the range. It works pretty well, but requires more space and setup time. The R10's downfall is calculating backspin accurately -- it consistently under estimates my spin rates. R10 seems to do fairly well up to about 5k or 6k RPM, then gets confused -- even with Titleist RCT balls. I spin my 9i in the low to mid 8,000's on flushed hits -- R10 produces 1k or more on the low side. R10 struggles with my 10k to 11k back spin on a full 55 degree sand wedge with a ProV1 -- it rarely even shows 9k spin.

******
My 3i and 3H are 21 degrees and I rarely carry them. Mainly because the guys I play with now won't play courses/tees in the 6700-7000 yard ballpark, where a low-20-something degree club makes sense for me. It's not like I'm afraid to hit this loft of club, either. It's just not a high percentage flushed club for me. Good hits with 21 degrees result in ball speeds in the low to mid 130-mph ballpark. Easier for me to just back off on my 19 degree 5W to cover that distance. IMO the manufacturers can identify a 21.5 degree iron as a 4i, but it's really a 3i. Even the pros have challenges hitting irons of this loft.

Google "WITB" for the top PGA players. They rarely carry the same type/brand of 4i or 3i as their mid-clubs -- say like a 7i. If they play blades, they might have a more forgiving cavity back or hollow body club. Think Woods, McIlroy, Scheffler, Rahm, Morikawa. A few PGA guys are moving towards 7 woods and hybrids.

On to LPGA. The top gals often carry 7 wood or hybrids. Even the longer hitters might not have more than a 5i in the bag. I don't know about you, but I can't match Nelly Korda's consistent 270-ish-yards down the center at sea level.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

I have a Garmin G80 in the bag at almost all times. The GPS is great. The club and ball speed numbers are very good -- equal to or 1 mph slower than figures from GC Quad, GC2, and Trackman. The G80's carry distances are quite close as long as I add 6% for the difference between sea level and Colorado air densities.

I have borrowed a buddy's R10 on occasion for the range. It works pretty well, but requires more space and setup time. The R10's downfall is calculating backspin accurately -- it consistently under estimates my spin rates. R10 seems to do fairly well up to about 5k or 6k RPM, then gets confused -- even with Titleist RCT balls. I spin my 9i in the low to mid 8,000's on flushed hits -- R10 produces 1k or more on the low side. R10 struggles with my 10k to 11k back spin on a full 55 degree sand wedge with a ProV1 -- it rarely even shows 9k spin.

******
My 3i and 3H are 21 degrees and I rarely carry them. Mainly because the guys I play with now won't play courses/tees in the 6700-7000 yard ballpark, where a low-20-something degree club makes sense for me. It's not like I'm afraid to hit this loft of club, either. It's just not a high percentage flushed club for me. Good hits with 21 degrees result in ball speeds in the low to mid 130-mph ballpark. Easier for me to just back off on my 19 degree 5W to cover that distance. IMO the manufacturers can identify a 21.5 degree iron as a 4i, but it's really a 3i. Even the pros have challenges hitting irons of this loft.

Google "WITB" for the top PGA players. They rarely carry the same type/brand of 4i or 3i as their mid-clubs -- say like a 7i. If they play blades, they might have a more forgiving cavity back or hollow body club. Think Woods, McIlroy, Scheffler, Rahm, Morikawa. A few PGA guys are moving towards 7 woods and hybrids.

On to LPGA. The top gals often carry 7 wood or hybrids. Even the longer hitters might not have more than a 5i in the bag. I don't know about you, but I can't match Nelly Korda's consistent 270-ish-yards down the center at sea level.

Thank you for the help. I have a lot to learn, especially knowing which hybrid/wood to pair with my 4 iron, which I hit well. Maybe it's psychological, but I feel confident with them, and am able to control where my shots go vs a hybrid where I essentially swing and pray.

I don't hit woods and hybrids well, so the dispersion numbers are all over the place with fitters. If I catch them well they go far, but 3 woods and 3 hybrids aren't my strength. It's probably good for me to have a hybrid and at least one wood to grow into, so would going with a 4 hybrid and a 5 wood be a good option?

Interesting how things have evolved. Seems like most sets now start with a stronger 5 iron and now include a gap wedge option. 20 years ago everything seemed to start with a 3 iron even if they were hard to hit for many.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackks:
Will I need a 4-iron and a 4 hybrid?

A 4i and 4h are going to be pretty close, gap-wise. In fact...

quote:

Originally posted by Ackks:
I tried them out today at a local store, and I was a lot more consistent with the iron, ...

Whereas I was just the opposite. I couldn't hit worth a damn with my 4i. I did so poorly with it I finally just pulled it. On a whim I bought a Callaway MAVRIK 4h. I would hit with that, and hit it well, right out of the gate ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

quote:

Originally posted by Ackks:
... vs a hybrid where I essentially swing and pray.

I don't hit woods and hybrids well, ...

Many times (perhaps most?) it's a mental thing. People see the larger heads on the ends of longer shafts and get it in their heads they need to swing harder. When you swing harder you tend to be more inconsistent.

This is why so many amateurs have so much trouble with their drivers.

Other times it really can be the club. I couldn't hit the el-cheapo woods I was gifted, nor either of the 3H's I was given (and those weren't el-cheapos). Based on player feedback I bought Callaway MAVRIK Max 5 and 7 woods. All-of-a-sudden I was now able to get the ball off the deck. The 4h I already mentioned.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackks:
... so would going with a 4 hybrid and a 5 wood be a good option?

4h to 5w is probably good gapping, but, like I said: A 4h is going to more-or-less duplicate, gap-wise, your 4i.

Right now I'm 5i, 4h, 7w, 5w, 3w, driver. Probably either the 4h or 7w will go away, making room at the bottom for (probably) a 50° wedge to slot between my 45° PW and my 54° wedge. (Unless I find I can't hit my 3w, which remains untried. Then I may keep both the 4h and 7w. Or still drop one of them and put my 58° CBX back in the bag. Or... )

quote:

4h to 5w is probably good gapping, but, like I said: A 4h is going to more-or-less duplicate, gap-wise, your 4i.

Right now I'm 5i, 4h, 7w, 5w, 3w, driver. Probably either the 4h or 7w will go away, making room at the bottom for (probably) a 50° wedge to slot between my 45° PW and my 54° wedge. (Unless I find I can't hit my 3w, which remains untried. Then I may keep both the 4h and 7w. Or still drop one of them and put my 58° CBX back in the bag. Or... Big Grin)

The nice thing is I'm not in tournament play, so I can keep an extra club or two in my bag. I'm currently at 49, 56, 60 (love my CBX 60), but may eventually change to 49, 54, 58.

You are right about the 4h duplicating the 4i. Keeping one hybrid in my bag might be nice, and I can't hit the 3h well, and I probably won't need it with a 5w. I'll figure it out, but I'll start with adding a 5w. Driver, 3w, 5w, mystery hybrid.

One thing that helped me this past year was the Jonathan Kim-Moss videos on YouTube. I bought a mat on Amazon and practiced the beginner series' 9 to 3 drills daily. There are many great teachers on YouTube, but he has drills that are easier for me to understand. Hopefully, it helps someone else.

https://www.youtube.com/@JKMGolf/videos

Most of the time I'm not even hitting a ball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hknosBP7BK8

quote:

Originally posted by Ackks:
I'll start with adding a 5w. Driver, 3w, 5w, mystery hybrid.

You should hit all the clubs enough to understand their flight characteristics before buying. This means ball speed, carry distance, total distance, peak height, spin, launch angle.

Many people struggle hitting a 3W well, both from the tee box or the fairway. It's been a hot or cold club with me over the years. Like many, I have challenges getting it up in the air from the fairway. Like many, I sometimes don't make clean strikes from the tee box with a short tee. For many players, the 3W is the least used club in their bag.

Distance gapping our long clubs is just as import as our irons and wedges. For many players, the real-world distances achieved from 3W, 5W, and 7W are about the same. Often the lofts are only 2 degrees apart. Many players don't have the swing speed to get the low-launching 3W up in the air, meaning that distance suffers. Many of these lower swing speed players launch a 7W so much better than a 5W that the distances achieved by both clubs are almost the same.

Over the past couple of months I've tested a number of drivers, fairway woods, and hybrids. I'm trying to whittle down the options, so that I have only 1 or 2 clubs for the final shaft-loft-lie fitting. There are at least 4 brands that I like, but Callaway Paradym is currently leading. The clubs feel & sound good to me, and they perform well with the new TT Hzrdus Silver shaft. I'm willing to spring for the upcharge Fujikura Ventus Velocore shafts, but if standard shafts work, I'm a happy camper.

I swing down on irons by a few degrees, meaning that I take divots. Not big hairpieces, but still divots. I can't seem to swing up on a teed up ball with a driver. With a head speed of 105-108 mph, one might think I should use a 9 or 10.5 degree driver. Nope -- I launch them too low for optimal flight. The fitter put me on a 10.5 degree head, then increased the loft to 11.5 degrees once he saw the results. Voila, flight improved a bunch. Spin might be a touch higher than optimal, but I can live with it.

Then on to 3W, both from deck and short tee. Flight wasn't optimal, so he cranked loft up to 16 degrees. I also tried a 16.5 degree head. Both produced better flight than the more common 15 degree 3W.

On to 5W. At 18 degrees, the Paradym 5W was too close to the 16 degree 3W to produce optimal gapping. The 5W doesn't have an adjustable hosel, so it's stuck at 18 degrees. I plan to try the Paradym Heavenwood at 20 degrees, which is essentially a 6W.

If I go with the Heavenwood, the Paradym hybrid would likely be 21 degrees. The hybrid's hosel is adjustable, and thus could be tweaked to 22 degrees if necessary. Depending on brand, the 5i would be 25.5 degrees, and now I would be gapped pretty well on the long clubs.

Take your time, do your homework, and hit a lot of different clubs.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: fritz,

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
I can't seem to swing up on a teed up ball with a driver.

The big mistake a lot of amateurs make is feeling they have to "swing up" with a driver. If your setup and swing are correct you don't have to purposely swing up on it, you just will.

• Tee should be more-or-less off your lead heel.
  
• Start with a tee height such that roughly half the ball is over the driver head with the driver head sitting on the ground directly behind it. (Most amateurs tee the ball too low.)
  
• Move the club head back to where you'd normally place it with irons--which is roughly in-line with your lead eye.
  
• Keep your eyes on that spot. Not on the teed-up ball.
  
• Setup stance just as you would with an iron except, once you've assumed it, add a slight upper-body tilt away from the target
  
• Swing as you normally would.

Providing you've done all this correctly, and not consciously or unconsciously tried to compensate for the actual ball position, consciously or unconsciously changed your swing to "hit up" on the ball, etc., the bottom of the club's arc will be more-or-less at its setup position roughly in line with your lead eye, the club head will be rising as it approaches the tee, and it will impact the ball. It literally cannot miss it.

Another thing to be aware of is the driver head will appear to be somewhat open at setup. This is normal. Providing you've got everything right, it will be right when it impacts the ball.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
I can't seem to swing up on a teed up ball with a driver.

The big mistake a lot of amateurs make is feeling they have to "swing up" with a driver. If your setup and swing are correct you don't have to purposely swing up on it, you just will.

• Tee should be more-or-less off your lead heel.
  
• Start with a tee height such that roughly half the ball is over the driver head with the driver head sitting on the ground directly behind it. (Most amateurs tee the ball too low.)
  
• Move the club head back to where you'd normally place it with irons--which is roughly in-line with your lead eye.
  
• Keep your eyes on that spot. Not on the teed-up ball.
  
• Setup stance just as you would with an iron except, once you've assumed it, add a slight upper-body tilt away from the target
  
• Swing as you normally would.

Providing you've done all this correctly, and not consciously or unconsciously tried to compensate for the actual ball position, consciously or unconsciously changed your swing to "hit up" on the ball, etc., the bottom of the club's arc will be more-or-less at its setup position roughly in line with your lead eye, the club head will be rising as it approaches the tee, and it will impact the ball. It literally cannot miss it.

Another thing to be aware of is the driver head will appear to be somewhat open at setup. This is normal. Providing you've got everything right, it will be right when it impacts the ball.

Interesting. Irons are a ball or so forward from center, so you tee your driver ball near your left shoulder/inside of your left heel and start the club back 3 inches from the ball?

quote:

Originally posted by Ackks:
Interesting. Irons are a ball or so forward from center, so you tee your driver ball near your left shoulder/inside of your left heel and start the club back 3 inches from the ball?

Maybe closer to four inches? I've never actually measured it.

The tee height and positioning are just commonly-recommended starting points. Season to taste

In any event the point is you want the club head rising as it meets the ball. If the bottom of your swing is in the usual place and the ball is placed target-wards of that point, the club head will be rising as it impacts the ball.

The slight upper-body tilt away from the target slightly increases that rise and helps ensure you won't take a divot at the bottom of your swing. (Though some people do with the driver.)

The cool thing about this is you don't actually alter your swing at all.

The most difficult part may be convincing yourself not to look at the ball and trust the the club head will hit it

That's a lot easier to do if you swing train as I do, which is 99-44/100% without a ball in front of me. I train without a ball. I practice and, of course, play, with a ball.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
The big mistake a lot of amateurs make is feeling they have to "swing up" with a driver.

Optimal ball flight from a driver involves some level of upward attack angle with the club. Optimal ball flight with shorter clubs almost always involves a downward attack angle with the club. For many players the best ball striking for the short irons occurs with the ball centered between their feet. As the clubs lengthen, one moves the ball progressively towards the left foot (right handed player). The ball location for the driver is often recommended to be just inside the heel of the left foot.

This doesn't work for me. For regular swings I have the ball centered in my stance for wedges all the way to 3W. I place the ball maybe 2 inches left of center for the driver. Even many moons ago with my lessons via Golftec, the teaching pro and I realized this was a quirk of my swing.

I can play a ball back in my stance pretty easily, with good results. If I want to flight the ball down, this is my setup. The normal reasons are include a longer bump-and-run to the green, hitting under low tree branches, and keeping the ball down in approaches during strong winds.

It's been a good year since I've been on a Trackman, GCQuad, or GC2 where I could accurately measure my attack angle. At that time my wedges and short irons had an attack angle of around -3 degrees, meaning the club struck the ball while moving on a downward angle of 3 degrees. Longer clubs were around -1, including driver. Outdoors that meant I produced fairly big divots with my short irons, but was more of a sweeper with the longer irons. In the past few months I've worked to flatten my swing plane on shorter irons, with the goal of chunking fewer short iron shots. I suspect my short iron attack angle is now around -2 or -3. I won't know until I go into custom fittings, when PGA Superstore uses a Trackman. PGA Superstore now has GCHawk launch monitors in the regular bays, and their club head metrics are not turned on.

A quick Google search of "Trackman PGA stats" shows the tour averages for swing metrics. The average PGA guy has a wedge attack angle of -5, going down to -3 for fairway woods. Driver average is currently -1.3, which means the average pro guy swings down on the ball. In contrast, the average driver attack angle for LPGA is 3.0, which means the average pro gal swings up on the ball.

I've seen a few sites state that the PGA guys realize that they're leaving some distance on the table with the downward driver attack angle, but they feel they can control the ball better by not swinging up on it. However, some of the best pros who just bomb the ball into the next county have upward attach angles. Furthermore, they swing really fast, have low lofted drivers, and come very close to optimizing ball flight.

I realize my downward driver attack angle doesn't produce optimal ball flight. My peak is a little low. My backspin is a little high. But I have a better chance of keeping the ball in the fairway. I'm fortunate that Colorado air is thin, producing a 6% boost in distance.

When I'm striking the ball well, here are pics of the launch monitors predicted results. Altitude is set at 5200 feet ASL, and the predicted numbers are aligned with what I see locally in mid- to late-summer, when our fairways dry out and firm up. Ball speeds of 151 and 153 mph are good for me with a driver. Not my max, but just good solid contact with a club head speed of around 105.





In recent weeks I've tended towards playing more rounds of "sim golf" than futzing around with "sim driving range". I find the logistics of practice bay use at PGA Superstore is easier if I go in with a reduced sized club set. So I'm currently using only 7 clubs. Driver, 5W, and even numbered irons from 4H to SW. Does make things a bit interesting when I need a 7i, 9i, or AW however....

I have the course play set up for auto putting once I've landed on the green, because "sim putting" isn't very good. Foresight software calculates putting on distance to hole and complexity of the green. A 10 foot putt might result in a putting score of 1.8 strokes, so that's why scores are in tenth's of a stroke. I find that almost everyone scores lower in sim golf than real golf -- maybe a 7 to 10 stroke ego boost, depending on how one consistently strikes the ball outdoors. I can generally complete an 18-hole sim round in an hour.

Here's a recent "round" at Kinsdale Golf and Fitness Club, which appears to be really close to the real thing.



And one at Tall Pines, which doesn't exist in the real world.

The numbers look good. You must have a nice swing.

Does anyone have thoughts on the Blast Swing Analyzer? From the sound of it you don't have to hit a ball, which could be great.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackks:
Does anyone have thoughts on the Blast Swing Analyzer? From the sound of it you don't have to hit a ball, which could be great.

Never heard of it before now but then there are a lot of new golf tech companies popping up.
I am sure it can help but looking it over - not going to replace a real one.
I got a Mevo Plus for Christmas ~ took it out a few times - works great.
One thing I found out - is we don't hit it (carry) as far as I thought.
Great info to work from ~ especially using at the range where you can see actual flight vs the numbers.
Haven't set it up for inside, that may take a while to figure out where to do it.