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No Joke: Cargo Ships Are Now Being Fitted With Sails, Because Science, or Something Login/Join 
The Ice Cream Man
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I’ve seen a number of different designs. It’s an incredibly cost competitive industry.

I’m sure if these are being done, it’s with a plan to decrease costs.

I know they have looked at partially submerged ships, as well, as a way to reduce the waterline.

It’s a remarkably innovative heavy industry.
 
Posts: 6036 | Location: Republic of Ice Cream, Low Country, SC. | Registered: May 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of sig sailor
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Sailors love to say that the wind is free. Here is what is not free; masts, booms, sails, standing rigging, running rigging. Anyone who has ever owned a sailboat knows what I'm talking about. If this idea works then great let's use it, but I'll have to see some cost breakdowns before I get too excited.
Rod


"Do not approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction." John Deacon, Author

I asked myself if I was crazy, and we all said no.
 
Posts: 1749 | Location: Between Rock & Hard Place (Pontiac & Detroit) | Registered: December 22, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Not as lean, not as mean,
Still a Marine
Picture of Gibb
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Its a series of rotating masts used to harness the Magnus Effect to help pull the ship forward. It is not a sail in the traditional sense.

These will only reduce engine output, they cannot be used in place of the ships engine.

I am curious to see how the cost effectiveness plays out.




I shall respect you until you open your mouth, from that point on, you must earn it yourself.
 
Posts: 3401 | Location: Southern Maine | Registered: February 10, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Thank you
Very little
Picture of HRK
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Cheese n Rice, read the thread, there are no "sails" or Booms, rigging of anykind.

These are cylindrical rotors, the forward movement of the ship turns the rotors, the rotors in turn create power to run the ship.

 
Posts: 24664 | Location: Gunshine State | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Partial dichotomy
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^^^ According to that video, the rotors are spun by an electric motor (how much power is required?). The wind may assist.

I'm sure they've done the calculations to determine the effectiveness, but they may not (probably don't) consider is the wear and tear and maintenance of these rotors, especially in a salt water environment. It's all good on paper.




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Posts: 39487 | Location: SC Lowcountry/Cape Cod | Registered: November 22, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Savor the limelight
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They rotate? That's not really clear from a picture. The link in the first post take you to the same text as the first post. There is another link in that text that takes me to a pay walled article that I couldn't read. I searched and came up with things like the picture below and assumed the cylinders pictured in the first post were the same thing in the closed position. Frown

 
Posts: 11995 | Location: SWFL | Registered: October 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of 229DAK
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quote:
These are cylindrical rotors, the forward movement of the ship turns the rotors, the rotors in turn create power to run the ship.
I would say electric motors turn the rotors. The rotors don't create power - they create lift, but in the horizontal plane (forward thrust) using the Magnus effect (and Bernoulli's principle). Much depends on the wind direction relative to the ship and whether they turn clockwise or counter-clockwise. Winds coming from either the port or starboard beam are probably the best. In operation when the rotor is switched on and starts rotating in presence of wind, the change in the speed of airflow results in a pressure difference which creates a lift force that is perpendicular to the direction of wind flow. This provides the ship with an additional forward force which reduces the engine’s fuel consumption.



Helpful Link


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“A man’s treatment of a dog is no indication of the man’s nature, but his treatment of a cat is. It is the crucial test. None but the humane treat a cat well.”
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Posts: 9392 | Location: Northern Virginia | Registered: November 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Thank you
Very little
Picture of HRK
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quote:
Originally posted by 229DAK:
quote:
These are cylindrical rotors, the forward movement of the ship turns the rotors, the rotors in turn create power to run the ship.
I would say electric motors turn the rotors. The rotors don't create power - they create lift, but in the horizontal plane (forward thrust) using the Magnus effect (and Bernoulli's principle). Much depends on the wind direction relative to the ship and whether they turn clockwise or counter-clockwise. Winds coming from either the port or starboard beam are probably the best. In operation when the rotor is switched on and starts rotating in presence of wind, the change in the speed of airflow results in a pressure difference which creates a lift force that is perpendicular to the direction of wind flow. This provides the ship with an additional forward force which reduces the engine’s fuel consumption.

Helpful Link


Yes that is correct, the point being made is that these are not being used as conventional sails, there's nothing that uses air to push the ship.
 
Posts: 24664 | Location: Gunshine State | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lost
Picture of kkina
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Looks like we're talking about all different things, apples, oranges, bananas.... There's different kinds of sails. They all harness wind propulsion in different ways.

BILLOWING SAILS: a traditional sail design

90 by kpkina, on Flickr

WING SAILS: airfoil-based sails rotate into position, but then stop at the optimal angle of attack (they don't continously rotate):


ROTOR SAILS: use electric motors to rotate continuously and utilize the Magnus effect for propulsion.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kkina,



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Posts: 17222 | Location: SF Bay Area | Registered: December 11, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of 229DAK
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quote:
there's nothing that uses air to push the ship.
Confused That's like saying there's nothing that uses air to push an airplane up.


_________________________________________________________________________
“A man’s treatment of a dog is no indication of the man’s nature, but his treatment of a cat is. It is the crucial test. None but the humane treat a cat well.”
-- Mark Twain, 1902
 
Posts: 9392 | Location: Northern Virginia | Registered: November 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
Picture of parabellum
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In reading this thread, I have lost 0.06% of my IQ.
 
Posts: 110047 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think this concept will be doomed by the difficulty of getting 3rd-world crews on Liberian-flagged ships to do the maintenance that huge rotating shafts will require.


===
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Posts: 2143 | Location: The Sticks in Wisconsin. | Registered: September 30, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
At Jacob's Well
Picture of jaaron11
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I wouldn't think much regular maintenance would be required for a rotor sail. Make sure the bearings stay sealed and the lubricating oil reservoirs are topped off.

I'm makings some design assumptions since I'm too lazy to look up the actual design, but it shouldn't be complicated.


J


Rak Chazak Amats
 
Posts: 5300 | Location: SW Missouri | Registered: May 08, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Just because you can,
doesn't mean you should
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There is really nothing that relates to actual sailboats beyond the name. And that is mostly an intentional marketing idea to get the zero carbon crowd onboard.
Most of the online material does a poor job explaining things so regular folks can understand.


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Posts: 9985 | Location: NE GA | Registered: August 22, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Savor the limelight
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I see the Flettnor Rotor is celebrating its 100th anniversary this year!

Begs the question, what has changed to allow it to be feasible now after its invention 100 years ago?
 
Posts: 11995 | Location: SWFL | Registered: October 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Drill Here, Drill Now
Picture of tatortodd
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quote:
Originally posted by HRK:
If you look at the link it...
I certainly didn't look at a link behind a paywall nor do I think it's a reasonable expectation to do so.
quote:
Originally posted by 220-9er:
Update: These work nothing like I thought. This short video explains things better that anything else I found although it's not real big on details.
While they do play up the green aspect in the marketing, the green money savings are what will make this a winner or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2jyOgg-T64
Thanks. Helpful video.



Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity

DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer.
 
Posts: 23949 | Location: Northern Suburbs of Houston | Registered: November 14, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Little ray
of sunshine
Picture of jhe888
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quote:
Originally posted by tatortodd:
Most sail boats lean due to the force on the sail from the wind.

For oil & gas, not sure we want very large crude carrier and ultra large crude carrier class vessels leaning. That's 200,000 to 500,000 deadweight tonnes.

Then, I start thinking about the cargo ships with the conexes stacked higher than the hull height and I'm even more skeptical of those leaning. Looking at new Panamax class they're stacking conexes 10m high and the hull is only 6 m. Megamax-24 class vessels are stacking conexes 13m high and the hull height is 12m.

The risk of capsizing seems rather large. Environmental disaster for supertankers, and huge business disruption if a ship goes down with 24,000 conexes.


If it works, it works. I am not a naval engineer. I doubt a shipowner will unduly imperil a valuable vessel if these sails coupld be problematic.

And they are doing to save fuel costs. Reducing emmissions is a side benefit.




The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
 
Posts: 53412 | Location: Texas | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of 229DAK
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quote:
Originally posted by tatortodd:
For oil & gas, not sure we want very large crude carrier and ultra large crude carrier class vessels leaning. That's 200,000 to 500,000 deadweight tonnes.
The thrust/force vector from these 'sails' is pointed forward and is controlled by the rotation speed of the rotors and the direction/speed of the wind relative to the ship. All computer-controlled w/input from wind sensors. If there is no sufficient forward thrust/force, then they are simply shut down. Additionally, there is not enough effective flat plate area of the rotors to cause any lean on these massive ships.
quote:
Then, I start thinking about the cargo ships with the conexes stacked higher than the hull height and I'm even more skeptical of those leaning. Looking at new Panamax class they're stacking conexes 10m high and the hull is only 6 m. Megamax-24 class vessels are stacking conexes 13m high and the hull height is 12m.
I don't believe we'll see these on container ships. The containers would block the rotors, which require secure mounting to the structure of the ship.
quote:
The risk of capsizing seems rather large.
I am not convinced of that at all.


_________________________________________________________________________
“A man’s treatment of a dog is no indication of the man’s nature, but his treatment of a cat is. It is the crucial test. None but the humane treat a cat well.”
-- Mark Twain, 1902
 
Posts: 9392 | Location: Northern Virginia | Registered: November 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of sig sailor
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quote:
Originally posted by HRK:
Cheese n Rice, read the thread, there are no "sails" or Booms, rigging of anykind.

These are cylindrical rotors, the forward movement of the ship turns the rotors, the rotors in turn create power to run the ship.

[FLASH_VIDEO]<iframe frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/a2jyOgg-T64?si=NyK4CxO59VNpUIST" title="YouTube video player" width="560"></iframe>[/FLASH_VIDEO]


HRK I did read the thread, and you missed my point. Additional equipment must be purchased at additional expense. As I said before if it works out, great let's use it, but if it is just additional expense for little gain then hard pass.
Rod


"Do not approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction." John Deacon, Author

I asked myself if I was crazy, and we all said no.
 
Posts: 1749 | Location: Between Rock & Hard Place (Pontiac & Detroit) | Registered: December 22, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
10mm is The
Boom of Doom
Picture of Fenris
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Looks a lot like a Roman Corvus.

>>> CARTHAGO DELENDA EST <<<

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Posts: 17611 | Location: Northern Virginia | Registered: November 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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