Sounds like junk.

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
So it is a personal Pepperball system.

As a certified Subject Matter Expert and Instructor in Pepperball, and having deployed them many many times against subjects, I say “nah”.

They simply aren’t super effective at stopping someone who has decided on certain courses of action.

So pepperballs are inherently and consistently less effective than pepper spray/ gel? I'd appreciate it if you would expand on this.

quote:

Originally posted by Perception:
WTF is a 600 lumen stun light. How does the Auto Laser Aim Assist work? Seems like a complicated, questionable solution to a question no one asked with no substantive details and a slick marketing campaign. Seems like it would probably be regulated exactly the same as a firearm in most areas as well.

As mentioned in the OP, the interviewer's 12 year old daughter was able to quickly assemble the 'gun' with the PAVA cartridges and fire it, so how "complicated" can it be? Deactivate the Safety and the light and laser turn on, point laser at the Target, pull the trigger.

The owner of the company and the designer both lost loved ones due to violence and other family members reportedly faced threats, so they gathered together several defense products including pepper spray, evaluated their weaknesses, and created this product. They specifically designed it to be simple and fast to use, and they've repeatedly introduced users with zero experience, given them minimal training, and they were able to fire and hit targets.

As evidenced by some comments in this thread, there may be legitimate arguments against this product, but I don't think it being overly complicated is one of them.

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:

quote:

Originally posted by Perception:
WTF is a 600 lumen stun light. How does the Auto Laser Aim Assist work? Seems like a complicated, questionable solution to a question no one asked with no substantive details and a slick marketing campaign. Seems like it would probably be regulated exactly the same as a firearm in most areas as well.

As mentioned in the OP, the interviewer's 12 year old daughter was able to quickly assemble the 'gun' with the PAVA cartridges and fire it, so how "complicated" can it be? Deactivate the Safety and the light and laser turn on, point laser at the Target, pull the trigger.

The owner of the company and the designer both lost loved ones due to violence and other family members reportedly faced threats, so they gathered together several defense products including pepper spray, evaluated their weaknesses, and created this product. They specifically designed it to be simple and fast to use, and they've repeatedly introduced users with zero experience, given them minimal training, and they were able to fire and hit targets.

As evidenced by some comments in this thread, there may be legitimate arguments against this product, but I don't think it being overly complicated is one of them.

More complicated, more expensive, and less reliable than the pepper spray it would replace. One of the shots in the demo video would have right over the shoulder of an actual attacker. I can't see a single way this would be superior to pepper spray. It's like a bad shark tank pitch, lots of glitter, not much substance.

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
So it is a personal Pepperball system.

As a certified Subject Matter Expert and Instructor in Pepperball, and having deployed them many many times against subjects, I say “nah”.

They simply aren’t super effective at stopping someone who has decided on certain courses of action.

So pepperballs are inherently and consistently less effective than pepper spray/ gel? I'd appreciate it if you would expand on this.

They are different tools for different applications, in my experience and training. I will expand…

Pepper/OC spray is much more of a personal defense/close distance tool. It’s painful burning is very quick to hit and long lasting, for most people. The downfalls are that it doesn’t discriminate and even with a good application, you may still end up dealing with it on yourself if you still have to engage with the aggressor. For that reason, it is seldom used in my facility because we ALWAYS have to continue to deal with the inmates. We can’t just spray and exit the area like a private citizen could do.

Pepperball systems, at least the traditional ones we use, are good from zero feet to direct application, realistically, out to 35-40 feet. “Area saturation”, is good at greater distances. We use it during cell extractions or potentially during a fight or large scale disturbance. In the course of a cell extraction, they work ok. Pain compliance is a thing when we are shooting a subject at relatively close range, but it is far from “certain”. Most people will take several rounds. Determined, crazy, high, or highly agitated can take more rounds than I’m willing to fire (I won’t be caught on video shooting a guy 10+ times, justified or not). From a chemical delivery point of view, it is uncomfortable in confined spaces, but not even remotely close to a good spray or gel application. Outside the chemicals are largely ineffective.

If a fella is refusing to comply while he is in his cell and I have to engage with him, I will choose the pepperball if:
1. He is right at the door and I don’t have sufficient distance to use a less lethal shotgun (again, point blank usage is just fine)
2. He is hiding behind a mattress and I can’t get a good shot with the shotgun. I can use the pepperball to disperse the chemical and hope for compliance (iffy)

I’ll use a pepperball upon entry into a known multiple-combatant type situation as I have lots of trigger pulls for multiple targets and I have greater distance than our less lethal 12 gauge munitions can do. That being said, people in the midst of fighting will not reliably react to
The impacts. I’ve been shot a number of times… it’s not comfy, but it’s not terrible, and that’s while standing still in a class setting and expecting it. In an adrenaline fueled situation the effectiveness just goes down.

So, yes, Pepperball has application in corrections and law enforcement (and in running of stray cats, so I’m told). It would have a place in playing a joke on a buddy by launching some PAVA rounds into your buddies garage. As a close distance personal defense weapon… I’m not convinced. I think the taser would be better (and I’m not a taser fan) as a good connection will more reliably shut down an aggressor than 2 good pepperball hits.

Final note: where I can really make a pepperball shine is in repeated impacts to the same location. If I’m in a barricaded cell situation and I have a determined subject, but I can hit the same spot on his body 3, 4, maybe 5 times, then it works. But that requires relatively close distances and a subject who isn’t moving. Shot placement also counts. Impacts on inner thigh or a shin bone are more effective than an upper back or shoulder.

In these liability lawsuit-saturated times we live in, it's understandable to consider that possibility when evaluating products like the HERO, especially for those evaluating it through the lens of law enforcement use. But the simple fact is that any time force is used, lethal or less lethal, we face the very real possibility of being sued so, speaking only for myself, I'm much more focused on effectively stopping an attacker and I'll deal with any potential legal blowback in the relative safety of court.

Take a look at the number of lawsuits against LEOs and correction officers while using pepper spray. There are law firms that specialize in pepper spray and tear gas lawsuits, so it seems short sighted to dismiss the HERO as some sort of lawsuit waiting to happen, while giving pepper spray a pass. Pepper spray some attacker with asthma, COPD, or other respiratory condition, and you're likely to be meeting with lawyers at some point, Qualified Immunity or not.

I made the decision to start carrying pepper spray last year, when rioters gathered and damaged our local police HQ and patrol cars and the court house, which are both near where I live and on one of the main avenues through the downtown area... so I don't have any objections to pepper spray, nor dog in the fight.

I haven't had any formal pepper spray training, but just practice drawing it from a belt pouch or from a zippered vest pocket, I've found it difficult and slow to deploy and aiming it had been somewhat inconsistent...so I'm open (hoping) for new pepper options that are easier, faster, and more instinctive to aim and fire, and this new HERO pepperball product seems to check those boxes.

Honestly, the biggest arguments against the HERO that resonate with me are its relative expense as well as the considerations both sigfreund and thumperfbc make...I'm chewing on their excellent thoughts now.

The other consideration I have against a product like the HERO is just exactly how I would use and carry it? Even as a private citizen, I'm packing a gun, 2 reloads, a knife, flashlight + all the ton of other gear carried. Carry it in the hand while walking? Leave it on the passenger seat while driving? I don't know if they offer a holster for the HERO, but even if they did, short of dumping some other carry gear, I'm not sure I could find room on my belt to carry it, and I'm guessing that concealing it would be a bitch, unless you went with off-body carry, which I suppose is an option.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
A couple of thoughts about such a weapon.

Thank you sigfreund. As usual, your comments covered issues I hadn't considered and have forced me to put more thought into how exactly I would use and carry a product like this.

Seems like a solution in search of a problem.

Also, if you're making a product for self defense please don't call it HERO (or punisher, vigilante, etc). Call it "safety helper" or some other innocuous name. Imagine a prosecutor having to repeat that 300 times during the course of a trial.

Here is kind of a bottom line: in a personal defense situation something like a Pepperball product could very well effectively avert an incident where someone was trying to do a “passive” robbery… like “gimme your phone or I’ll stab you”, provided the person does not actually want to stab you and hasn’t already decided to stab you should you not comply.

But versus a person who has either already started a deliberate course of action or is already in the effects of adrenaline, I’d wager, with large sums, that it won’t stop them.

Pepper spray, which can actually inhibit their ability to see, is a better option. The pain compliance of pepperballs, in my experience, isn’t enough, and the chemical action is an inhaled irritant more than anything.

When I’ve taught classes on all these weapons nobody every panics or freaks out due to Pepperball impacts or exposure.

Someone ALWAYS panics on OC exposure day… this is so reliable that we no longer do this training anywhere near a road with traffic (we’ve had people blindly run away in utter panic mode) and we always use a buddy system for those exposed and still have a perimeter of sorts of non-exposed safety officers to contain the panicked. Always.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: thumperfbc,

Each of these gadgets comes packaged with a two foot long wooden dowel and a small jar of Vaseline so the crook won't have any trouble shoving this thing up your ass.

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
They are different tools for different applications, in my experience and training. I will expand…

Thank you for the time you took to answer my questions, very much appreciated!

As a non- pro private gun carrying citizen, the ease in use, the instinctive aiming and firing, the stand off potential of engaging a threat accurately from distance and the possible deterrent effect of the PAVA ball impact all make the HERO an attractive option to me...but I'd like to know that the pepper used would be effective on a threat.

I was leaning towards the PAVA ball dust cloud being more effective for my uses, but your comments have me now wondering if the PAVA gel ball would be the better option.

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
Pepper spray, which can actually inhibit their ability to see, is a better option. The pain compliance of pepperballs, in my experience, isn’t enough, and the chemical action is an inhaled irritant more than anything.

Thumperbfc's thoughts mirror my own experience. Actual physical incapacitation/inhibition trumps mere pain compliance any day.



(When they work as intended, which isn't 100%...) The various common less-lethal options roughly run the gamut in order from:

Taser: Both incapacitation and pain compliance with the probes, but just pain compliance with drive stuns

OC: Some incapacitation/inhibition and pain compliance

Pepperball: A little incapacitation/inhibition and some pain compliance

Bean bag shotgun/40mm or similar impact projectile: No incapacitation and some pain compliance

Baton: No incapacitation and some pain compliance


But some of them have additional benefits that fill a niche, like the added range of the bean bags/pepperballs over batons/OC.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Thumperbfc's thoughts mirror my own experience. Actual physical incapacitation/inhibition trumps mere pain compliance any day.

Great break down! That really helps to evaluate the trade-offs.

quote:

Originally posted by DaveL:
Also, if you're making a product for self defense please don't call it HERO (or punisher, vigilante, etc). Call it "safety helper" or some other innocuous name. Imagine a prosecutor having to repeat that 300 times during the course of a trial.

Yeah, I'm not big on the product name or the terms they use to describe the product features, and would prefer less hype.. but, being realistic, this is a new start up company, like it or not- marketing works (at least on some people and products), and this product isn't being marketed so much to people carrying guns as much as towards parents with daughters walking college campuses, and retired people walking their dogs along a road.

I don't like the name or hyped up feature terms, but I won't automatically dismiss the product just because of them either.

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
They are different tools for different applications, in my experience and training. I will expand…

Thank you for the time you took to answer my questions, very much appreciated!

I was leaning towards the PAVA ball dust cloud being more effective for my uses, but your comments have me now wondering if the PAVA gel ball would be the better option.

You’re very welcome.

The powder will obviously disperse more effectively and leave a lot more “room for error”. Gel, in the eyes, nose, or mouth, would be more effective and altering the poor behavior of the aggressor, but just how does one expect to get a pava-gel filled ball in that location? No other real answer besides shooting them in the face. I won’t comment on whether that is advisable or not because it is totally situation dependent.

If I wanted to beat your ass I could work through the irritation and coughing that the dust would cause… especially if you don’t have 150 rounds of it at your disposal like I do with the actual Pepperball systems deployed by LE.

Solid nope.

Private citizen less lethal? Apply OC. Run away. Upwind. A can of Fox is cheaper and likely more effective.

Just remember, UPWIND. I ran through a cloud of Fox once. Not recommended.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Each of these gadgets comes packaged with a two foot long wooden dowel and a small jar of Vaseline so the crook won't have any trouble shoving this thing up your ass.

Exactly! 2 or 3 JHPs won't stop them but a paintball will. Or maybe a .45.