I'm putting in an Internet-connected LAN/WLAN for a buddy, in his hunting cabin and pole barn (about the size of a small airplane hanger), out in the middle of Michigan's north woods.

The Plan is to put an outside LTE modem on a wall-mount mast at one end of the "hanger" (highest structure). Back-haul that to the cabin, where a small NetGear PoE+ switch will be located. There'll be another run back to the hanger, for its AP, and an AP in the cabin.

The reason for all the back-and-forth to the cabin is it'll be kept well above freezing. (Temps there get to as low as -20°F in the dead of winter.) Cabin <-> hanger will be with Belden 7940A direct-bury Cat. 6 in conduit.

I'm currently thinking an EnGenius ENH1350EXT for the hanger and an EnGenius EWS357AP for the cabin. Both were chosen because they run on industry-standard 802.3af PoE.

I had planned to use the ENS620EXT for the hanger, until I realized it used non-standard PoE, and the EWS377AP in the cabin, but I'd prefer to have the lower power budget of 802.3af vs. 802.3at (PoE vs. PoE+).

Power budget is a consideration because there is a possibility, during extreme cold and heavy snow, the solar system could run out of battery. The PoE switch will be on a small UPS. We'll want the network to stay up as long as possible if the power goes out.

This is critical because the cabin is not occupied full-time. My friend wants to be able to keep an eye on things (the solar system and cabin temperature, for now) while away. Particularly in wintertime.

What do y'all think?

Would we sacrifice coverage (range) with the EWS357AP vs. the EWS377AP? Or is the difference throughput and max client capacity? We'd like that AP's coverage to extend well beyond the walls of the cabin. (Fire pit about twenty feet away and outside kitchen about thirty feet away.) The cabin AP will be placed at average ceiling height, about fifteen feet from the front wall. That wall has vinyl siding. The other three: Aluminum. There's a large-ish window and a door wall in front.

Why the UPS? I’m assuming there’s a solar system because there’s no utility service at the property. Wouldn’t extra storage capacity for the solar system be money better spent?

Why leave the network running when no one is there? Is there a plan to run WiFi cameras, alarm system, and/or temperature sensors?

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Why the UPS? I’m assuming there’s a solar system because there’s no utility service at the property.

Why leave the network running when no one is there?

All answered in the OP:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
... there is a possibility, during extreme cold and heavy snow, the solar system could run out of battery. The PoE switch will be on a small UPS. We'll want the network to stay up as long as possible if the power goes out.

This is critical because the cabin is not occupied full-time. My friend wants to be able to keep an eye on things (the solar system and cabin temperature, for now) while away. Particularly in wintertime.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Wouldn’t extra storage capacity for the solar system be money better spent?

The UPS will cost all of a whoppin' $70. Wouldn't get much storage upgrade for the solar system for that. Besides which: The goal is to ensure the network stays up through a power failure, should it occur. At least for a short while.

Further (I didn't mention this because the OP got long enough as it was): There will be a backup gasoline generator in case the solar system runs dry while they're there. The UPS will protect the network system from generator power anomalies.

quote:

Would we sacrifice coverage (range) with the EWS357AP vs. the EWS377AP?

No, the range is based on the antenna focus (it is omnidirectional) , the power transmitted and anything in between the antenna and the client.

A 3 radio unit would not help so much.

If you do need extended range beyond the cabin I would consider an outdoor AP or one with external antenna connections.

You could replace an local antenna with an external one and run a cable to a point much farther away or point a directional antenna to you desired area.

You could utilize both bands and/or combine internal and external antennas to achieve maximum coverage.

Keep in mind this is a two-way conversation so just hyping up the power on the AP doesn't help if the client doesn't have enough juice to replay.

On you budget scenario, you will have to work out the numbers based on the estimated power situation.
FWIW, if it is just one AP then a single proprietary power injector is not a big deal or extreme cost.

I’m sorry. I completely missed that paragraph. The UPS makes sense with the generator.

Assuming the temp sensor and solar monitor can’t be hardwired which would make your question moot, the actual power draw of the two units may be closer in use than their max. power consumption numbers would lead you to believe. Both units have the ability to vary their transmit power as needed and I’d bet their power draw numbers would be similar as long as the temp sensor and solar monitor are close to the WAP. I’d turn off the 5GHz radio. It probably won’t make it to the fire pit. It doesn’t at my house with a metal roof and low E glass. Maybe buy both and test how much they draw, then send the one back you decide not to keep?

Based on you wanting to mount the 4g LTE modem outside on a pole, I’m going to guess the service is about as good as ours is at our properties in the north woods of Michigan. That’s going to be your bottleneck over the numbers of clients the WAPs can handle. FWIW, my EWS360AP handles 20 clients fine.

I’ve gone through the process a few times and come to the conclusion that knowing what the temperature was wasn’t worth the expense. We drain the water out of the plumbing, fixtures, and water heaters. We use our cellphones as hotspots for the computer when needed.

quote:

......will be with Belden 7940A direct-bury Cat. 6 in conduit.

what's the distance of the cable run from the cabin to/from the hanger thing?

quote:

The Plan is to put an outside LTE modem on a wall-mount mast at one end of the "hanger" (highest structure).

I'm missing the part about how the LTE modem is powered. First guess would be POE, but wanted to confirm.

What's the lowest temp spec on that LTE device? Is it published?


in terms of the EWS357AP vs. the EWS377AP? The difference in transmit power seems to be 3 dB. Although it's double the power, I'd be surprised if there was any real difference noticed. 3 dB isn't a lot -- it seems like a lot because "it's double" but for this application not so much.

I don't necessarily see non-standard POE to be a deal-breaker in this case. Just a different injector.

By the way, do you really need to power the AP's if the battery power goes dead? if yes, why? Please don't tell me for Wifi Cameras --- I have a special hate for wifi cameras.

You might also consider an external LTE antenna instead of mounting the modem itself outside if that is what you were considering.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
No, the range is based on the antenna focus (it is omnidirectional) , the power transmitted and anything in between the antenna and the client.

A 3 radio unit would not help so much.

Ok, that's what I thought. Just checking myself

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
If you do need extended range beyond the cabin I would consider an outdoor AP or one with external antenna connections.

I'm pretty sure they'll be fine at least out to the fire pit. The outdoor kitchen I think is marginal. If necessary: We'll put another AP out there.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
FWIW, if it is just one AP then a single proprietary power injector is not a big deal or extreme cost.

Actually: The 620 includes the proprietary PoE injector, and it's a few bucks cheaper. But I'd prefer to stick with industry-standard PoE.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
I’m sorry. I completely missed that paragraph. The UPS makes sense with the generator.

I didn't mention the generator in the OP

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
I’d turn off the 5GHz radio. It probably won’t make it to the fire pit. It doesn’t at my house with a metal roof and low E glass.

Yeah, he has a metal roof, too. That's actually one of the driving forces behind this project: To get "cell" coverage (WiFi calling) inside the structures.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
I’ve gone through the process a few times and come to the conclusion that knowing what the temperature was wasn’t worth the expense. We drain the water out of the plumbing, fixtures, and water heaters.

That's precisely one thing he's trying to get away from.

quote:

Originally posted by radioman:

quote:

......will be with Belden 7940A direct-bury Cat. 6 in conduit.

what's the distance of the cable run from the cabin to/from the hanger thing?

Don't know, yet. We're doing an over-nighter next week to do a survey. Just from memory: I don't expect any run to exceed 200 feet--that's switch-to-device. (And that'll be the AP in the middle of the hanger.)

quote:

Originally posted by radioman:
I'm missing the part about how the LTE modem is powered. First guess would be POE, but wanted to confirm.

What's the lowest temp spec on that LTE device? Is it published?

Yes, it's PoE-powered. Lowest official temp spec is 14°F. I raised this issue with them. They responded that they've tested them down to -40° (that's both Celsius and Fahrenheit). They said the bigger issue might be the SIM card.

quote:

Originally posted by radioman:
By the way, do you really need to power the AP's if the battery power goes dead? if yes, why?

For the solar system and thermostat.

I believe they will continue to operate sans power. But it makes little difference: I simply do not operate computer and network gear w/o a UPS. That policy has served me well for a good many years.

As for surveillance cams: If he decides he wants them, I'll recommend a larger EnGenius PoE switch and wired cameras, but it will, of course, be his choice.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
You might also consider an external LTE antenna instead of mounting the modem itself outside if that is what you were considering.

This LTE modem is designed to be mounted outdoors.

This is the modem: Elsys Amplimax

I've got one hooked up to my laptop, right now. I've so far tested it on AT&T and T-Mobile. Pretty impressive bit of kit

Tryin' to get my buddy to cough up a VZW SIM so I can test it on their network.

If it had a "bridge" (pass-through) mode I'd consider replacing my NetGear LTE modem with one.

Thanks for the comments, everybody!

quote:

This LTE modem is designed to be mounted outdoors.

Y'all get much lightning there? I always worry about cheap consumer grade stuff being placed at one of the highest points on a property.

Now days NEC requires many, if not most, outdoor antennas to have lightning protection. Not sure about an LTE modem device like this. Skins might know.

But I always consider lightning when doing above the roof installs. If the modem has a ground connection on it, use it -- that's not a complete solution, but it's a start.

quote:

Lowest official temp spec is 14°F. I raised this issue with them. They responded that they've tested them down to -40° (that's both Celsius and Fahrenheit). They said the bigger issue might be the SIM card.

There are industrial SIM cards that are sped'd to a lower temperature. Those consumer SIM cards that cost $1, not so much. I believe there are SIM cards that meet the automotive temp specs these days, which go to -40 C/F that are micro or nano or whatever size you need.


As for the rest of the modem, since I didn't design it, I can't say what will happen, but freq standards like crystals on cheap cost reduced devices tend to drift to the point where signal modem lock is lost. They usually don't pay the extra $5 in a consumer device for better crystals that work over a wider range. Other components won't do well either. Just the way it is. But, you will find that self heating helps a little at cold temps. That heat in the case actually helps you in this situation.

Of course, just like they worry about in automotive, if the device has been powered down long enough to thermally equalize to -20 Deg, it may never come back until the ambient temp rises, or self heating brings it back into temp range like an old tube TV set

quote:

Originally posted by radioman:

quote:

This LTE modem is designed to be mounted outdoors.

Y'all get much lightning there?

I don't know about "much," but we get thunderstorms, so, yes: We get lightning.

quote:

Originally posted by radioman:
Now days NEC requires many, if not most, outdoor antennas to have lightning protection.

I'll ground the mast. That's the best I can do. The modem, itself, has no ground lug. It isn't even set up for STP cable.

quote:

Originally posted by radioman:

quote:

Lowest official temp spec is 14°F. I raised this issue with them. They responded that they've tested them down to -40° (that's both Celsius and Fahrenheit). They said the bigger issue might be the SIM card.

There are industrial SIM cards that are sped'd to a lower temperature. Those consumer SIM cards that cost $1, not so much. I believe there are SIM cards that meet the automotive temp specs these days, which go to -40 C/F that are micro or nano or whatever size you need.

I was not aware of that. I'll have to look into it. Thanks!