When I bought my Kubota l6060 tractor from the local recommended place up in va. They pulled this same shit on me. Mine was in stock, and it took over 90 days to deliver the tractor to me. Their excuse was the implements I ordered. I had made 3 payments on it to Kubota, and had to talk to Kubota financial directly.

Kubota sorted it out by the end of the week.

That tractor dealership is no longer there.

I really have to wonder about the future of auto dealerships. If I have to order a vehicle and wait months to get it, why do I need to go to a dealership to do that? What can't I just order it from the manufacture's website?

It works for carvana with used cars. It can work for new cars as well.

These questions are rhetorical. I don't expect anyone to have the answers.

I understand that many states have laws which say that auto dealerships need to be independent dealers. I also realize that certain manufacturers have agreements with certain dealerships giving them exclusive rights to certain territories. Yet, it will only take one manufacturer to start selling direct in one state and at a big enough discount that people will be willing to travel to pick up their new vehicle.

I would gladly travel three or four states just to not to have to deal with a dealership.

Beyond the laws requiring this (thanks to the money the auto industry spends lobbying...sound familiar?), most of the manufacturers expect a dealership to be able to deal with the vehicle after the sale via service and body departments.

If you eliminated the dealers, you'd be dealing with that can of worms. What do you do when you have a car under warranty but nobody to make the repairs?

For repairs covered under warranty, please remove batteries, drain all fluids, including gasoline, all personal belongings, and package vehicle well with plenty of padding in a large cardboard box. (no peanuts) and return to manufacture, where we will inspect and decide upon repair strategy.*



*not responsible for shipping costs to or from our facility.

Please allow six to eight weeks for our decision.

All decisions are final.

quote:

Originally posted by gpbst3:
I have no issues paying ahead of time if the vehicle physically exists.

You might re-think this position. I bought a Ford truck years ago. I put a standard down payment down on it. The salesman called me when it arrived. When I got to the dealership that afternoon, I was told (and shown) the transport guy backed the truck off the load ramps and did major damage to it. Dealer told me they'd fix it, I told them no way (given the extent of the damage), I wanted another vehicle. After hiring an attorney and going round and round with the dealer for almost three weeks, I finally got another 'new' truck order. Two realities in dealing with a car dealer. One, if they ever do the right thing by you, its likely an accident on their part. And two, put as little as possible down on a new deal and always be willing to walk away from it if things get stupid.

quote:

I think the dealer is trying to get the buyer to back out of the deal so they can sell at a higher price.

Bingo. As inventory has continued to wane, this dealer is playing games to try and re-sell the vehicle for a higher margin.

But consider what's being proposed here. Pay in full before you have anything whatsoever to show for your money. You know that $50k kitchen remodel, we want to be paid in full 30 days before the job start date. How many here would agree to that? For those who would, how many times do you think you'd actually get anywhere close to what you paid for? And running purely from what was in the story, how the hell can I insure a vehicle I don't own? And why would I want to? How many banks are going to jump at the idea of financing a vehicle you don't have possession of? Or what if you sell me your truck and want full payment now with delivery of the truck to you at the end of the month? But don't worry, if anything bad were to happen to it, you have the seller's word they'll make it right? Sound like a good deal?

Illegal or not, this whole deal is too stupid to ever consider for a moment. Call Gordon the GM and tell him to put that Yukon sideways up his ass when it comes in, and that you'll do everything in your power to cost that dealership as much future business as possible.

As has been said, either the dealer is wanting to resell at a higher price or they need money NOW to pay their bills.

Either way, I'd take my money and run.

Just what kind of service would you expect from said dealership?

Go buy from a place that WANTS your business and will treat you right.

Have a few friends call and agree to buy it at the higher price. And then have them give the dealership the run-around.

Have an attorney send a letter to the dealer stating that the prior agreement to purchase, the deposit, and agreed terms of sale (payment on delivery) constitute a contract, and the buyer does not agree to the attempt to change the contract. Any breach of contract will be litigated in court and the likelihood that a jury (or any human being for that matter) would side with a dealer over a customer is very very low.

Adding:

Cars have titles. And the title is transferred at the time of purchase and delivery, either to the buyer or to the finance company. Dealer inventory is usually financed through the manufacturer's finance arm, and the dealer pays interest monthly. In this case there will be minimal if any financing cost to the dealer. I don't think the dealer can get the title from the manufacturer before taking delivery, which means they can't transfer it to you (but I may be wrong about this). Paying for a car without transfer of title is just asking for trouble.

If the dealer is so cash strapped they can't stay in business long enough to deliver the car and need payment now, there is no guaranty they will not go bankrupt before they deliver the car. Then you will really be stuck and have to sort it out in bankruptcy court.

Nope, nope, and nope.

Sounds like the store is having a bad month and the sales department needs every sale possible to make their quota for the month. Managers who do not meet their quotas are either demoted or shown the door.

This part is laughable,

“But what if someone purchases and insures a vehicle before taking possession and that vehicle falls off a truck or is somehow damaged or destroyed?

Gordon said the dealer would fix the damage because it's their responsibility to deliver a vehicle in new condition or they would "unwind the transaction."

Though it’s been many years since I was responsible for checking in new vehicles for a General Motors dealership at least back then we could refuse to take delivery of a vehicle with damage over a certain dollar amount or that required a body panel replacement.

That is considered a Transportation Claim, those are between the dealership, the transportation companies and the manufacturer and do not involve the vehicle owner.

I call B.S. on “unwinding” a deal for a damaged vehicle. A dealer putting himself on the hook potentially for the value of a vehicle that is totaled? Seriously doubt it, once in your name they could care less and probably would say “You need to call your insurance company” and at that time find out that your claim is denied due to the circumstances.

This is one of the downsides to dealer groups and dealers owning multiple points. The manufacturer is unwilling to bring down the hammer on things like this, all they are interested in is seeing “taillights”, meaning cars sold to dealerships. Remember the ultimate customer is not the customer to a manufacturer, the dealership is.

If the auto industry goes the way of the micro brand watch world with regards to boutiques/dealerships and the experience they provide (or lack there of) I see many dealerships going tits up in the future. They get most of their money from repair work unless they can charge obscene markups and blame it on the mental insanity of the market.

Why is that a possibility? A boutique is a luxury that is in many ways a middle man and is obsolete for people who want a good product and don’t want to pay for the “luxury experience” at the boutique. The service they “provide” is in my experience a net negative.

I’ve seen a few micro brands offer a vastly superior experience and even a few begin to take aim at the luxury watch brands and what they do best and what makes them look exclusive. To think autos won’t experience something similar might be naive.

Two micro brands have closed their boutiques and gone to online direct sales or partnered with a few online vendors. This might happen with autos in the future.

A dealer with obscene mark ups and what I would call abusive behavior in my eyes can fuck right off until the sun swallows this planet. People won’t forget how they were treated unless they like to be treated like shit or are just fools. This is the reason I have grown to detest Omega watches. They make a great watch but their affiliates are scoundrels.

If someone realizes they can offer a product at a vastly discounted price similar to micro brand watches and applies their cost cutting measures to automobiles they could make a TON of money. They could also offer a better experience if they thought it through and did their homework.

I'd get my deposit refunded and when another vehicle I liked became available at another dealership I'd go purchase that vehicle. Unless you're desperate now is not the time to buy a new or used vehicle. My car and truck are both getting up in mileage but still look good and good working order so my plan to buy another vehicle isn't for about another 2 years at which time this chip shortage will have been resolved. If the original buyer wants to he could hire an attorney and see if the dealership is in breach of contract and if they can sue for anything above forcing the dealership to honor the original contract. Public pressure is probably the best course of action because the last thing any business wants is negative press.

quote:

Originally posted by gpbst3:


In this case, just because there is a VIN does not mean there is a vehicle. Vehicles are assigned a VIN during early production. You can have a VIN but no vehicle for months.

^^^This 100%.

My youngest brother put an F350 on order in the middle of September and was told 10-12 weeks, he received the VIN a few weeks after. We’re now at the back end of February. Care to guess what he still doesn’t have?

Fortunately for him, he doesn’t really need the truck, he’s just updating from his 2013. For anyone else who’s ordering, you can apparently tell if you’re going to be waiting or WAITING by the order sheet as they seems to assign a priority number that ranges either 10-19 or 11-19, 10 or 11 being the quicker build date to 19 being basically “who the hell knows”.

If he put a deposit, he likely signed a purchase order, which constitutes the contract you speak of. I'd bet dollars to donuts that the language in that contract basically allows the dealer to do anything they want, including cancelling the contract and returning the deposit. So if the customer won't pay up, they'll cut him loose, and find another customer who will. In what has become an incredibly tight market, they likely would be able to.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
Have an attorney send a letter to the dealer stating that the prior agreement to purchase, the deposit, and agreed terms of sale (payment on delivery) constitute a contract, and the buyer does not agree to the attempt to change the contract. Any breach of contract will be litigated in court and the likelihood that a jury (or any human being for that matter) would side with a dealer over a customer is very very low.

Adding:

Cars have titles. And the title is transferred at the time of purchase and delivery, either to the buyer or to the finance company. Dealer inventory is usually financed through the manufacturer's finance arm, and the dealer pays interest monthly. In this case there will be minimal if any financing cost to the dealer. I don't think the dealer can get the title from the manufacturer before taking delivery, which means they can't transfer it to you (but I may be wrong about this). Paying for a car without transfer of title is just asking for trouble.

If the dealer is so cash strapped they can't stay in business long enough to deliver the car and need payment now, there is no guaranty they will not go bankrupt before they deliver the car. Then you will really be stuck and have to sort it out in bankruptcy court.

quote:

Originally posted by stickman428:
If the auto industry goes the way of the micro brand watch world with regards to boutiques/dealerships and the experience they provide (or lack there of) I see many dealerships going tits up in the future. They get most of their money from repair work unless they can charge obscene markups and blame it on the mental insanity of the market.

Why is that a possibility? A boutique is a luxury that is in many ways a middle man and is obsolete for people who want a good product and don’t want to pay for the “luxury experience” at the boutique. The service they “provide” is in my experience a net negative.

I’ve seen a few micro brands offer a vastly superior experience and even a few begin to take aim at the luxury watch brands and what they do best and what makes them look exclusive. To think autos won’t experience something similar might be naive.

Two micro brands have closed their boutiques and gone to online direct sales or partnered with a few online vendors. This might happen with autos in the future.

A dealer with obscene mark ups and what I would call abusive behavior in my eyes can fuck right off until the sun swallows this planet. People won’t forget how they were treated unless they like to be treated like shit or are just fools.

Very unlikely to happen with cars. Cars are too complicated and cost too much to develop and manufacture. A big reason for this is ever increasing gov't regulation for emissions, fuel economy, and safety. You have to sell a lot to make any money on the investment. Cars are service intensive and need a service network and parts distribution, which again favors economies of scale. Modern cars need complex diagnostic equipment and the ability to re-flash ECM's and other computers with software updates. They aren't just going to let an independent shop have access to this stuff because of the risk of emissions non-compliance (or worse).

Sure, boutique brands exist at the high end - Bugatti, McLaren, Bently, etc. - but they are very expensive to buy, and very expensive to service.

Tesla is an exception - selling direct in non-traditional ways - it will be interesting to see what they do in the future.

Really, it's the anti-trust laws regulating vertical integration that prevent manufacturers from selling direct. Long ago when companies owned their own distribution and even their own railroads, they could force competitors out of business by refusing access to transportation. But times have changed and having dealers owned by the manufacturers would help fix a lot that we hate about buying and servicing cars. Then again, it might not change as much as we hope it would.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
If he put a deposit, he likely signed a purchase order, which constitutes the contract you speak of. I'd bet dollars to donuts that the language in that contract basically allows the dealer to do anything they want, including cancelling the contract and returning the deposit. So if the customer won't pay up, they'll cut him loose, and find another customer who will. In what has become an incredibly tight market, they likely would be able to.

Depends on the state laws governing car purchases, and the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code). Contract language may not be valid if it violates the law. If the purchase agreement specifies a price and was accepted by both parties then it can't unilaterally be broken by the seller. Any contract that specifically states "one side can cancel the deal any time for any reason" is not really much of a contract, right?

In business, a purchase order is a contract to buy, and payment is made after delivery of the goods, usually under Net 30 terms, but now Net 60 or 90 are becoming common. During the period before a purchase order is placed, the UCC is reasonably clear about what constitutes a contract.

But if this is how the dealer wants to behave, I would not want to do business with them at all. To me, a dealer has a vested interest in retaining customers for future sales, both through the sales experience and the service experience. The best car salesmen I ever met said he didn't have a lot of customers, but he had repeat customers that bought a lot of cars. If they pull a stunt like this now, what other shady stuff are they going to do later? Charge extra fees for warranty repairs? Lie to you so you authorize unnecessary service?

quote:

But what if someone purchases and insures a vehicle before taking possession and that vehicle falls off a truck or is somehow damaged or destroyed?

Gordon said the dealer would fix the damage because it's their responsibility to deliver a vehicle in new condition or they would "unwind the transaction."

"Fixing the damage" is not "in new condition."

He's probably stuck either completing the transaction with the dealer or forfeiting the $500 deposit. Personally, were it I, I'd be seriously contemplating forfeiting the deposit.

If I took possession of the vehicle, that's the last that dealership would see of me.

If I decided to bail: Being retired, and with time on my hands, I'd probably sue to recover it in small claims court. If nothing else: They'd have to take the time and money to defend the suit.

Either way: Both GM and Michigan's AG would hear about this. As would the BBB and Yelp.

Me: great let’s go finance this through GM financial. Then when the finance company calls me in a few months to ask where payment is I will say come get the car it’s in my driveway. Wait just kidding I have never taken posession. Oh by the way, care to see my video of the entire episode in the dealership with sales people and finance people where they told me I HAD to do this to get said car ? Oh wait ? You don’t want to talk to my lawyer ? Got it.
I’m pretty sure somebody will get fooked and it’s not the buyer when this all comes unwound

Sadly the best course of action will likely be do nothing. Tell dealer to kick rocks and let local news channel consumer reporter bust his balls publicly

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

But what if someone purchases and insures a vehicle before taking possession and that vehicle falls off a truck or is somehow damaged or destroyed?

Gordon said the dealer would fix the damage because it's their responsibility to deliver a vehicle in new condition or they would "unwind the transaction."

"Fixing the damage" is not "in new condition."

He's probably stuck either completing the transaction with the dealer or forfeiting the $500 deposit. Personally, were it I, I'd be seriously contemplating forfeiting the deposit.

If I took possession of the vehicle, that's the last that dealership would see of me.

If I decided to bail: Being retired, and with time on my hands, I'd probably sue to recover it in small claims court. If nothing else: They'd have to take the time and money to defend the suit.

Either way: Both GM and Michigan's AG would hear about this. As would the BBB and Yelp.

Secretary of State is in charge of dealer licensing here.

I really doubt our AG or General Motors would do anything.

I’ll bet the Bank would not be pleased and happy to learn of this. That smacks of fraud.

Many years ago I worked at a Dealership that ended up going out of business, GM walked in and took it over and quickly sold it to another local established dealer. The dealership owner was in serious financial trouble and pulled all kinds of serious financial shit. I quit the last pay period payday that was good, my check cleared the bank. The following pay period everyone’s pay check bounced.
.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
For repairs covered under warranty, please remove batteries, drain all fluids, including gasoline, all personal belongings, and package vehicle well with plenty of padding in a large cardboard box. (no peanuts) and return to manufacture, where we will inspect and decide upon repair strategy.*



*not responsible for shipping costs to or from our facility.

Please allow six to eight weeks for our decision.

All decisions are final.

I’ve experienced companies like this and have severed ties and supported their competitors. When supporting their competitors I have been incredibly vocal about my experience. If your business model is doing people wrong eventually you will run out of people who try to prove P.T. Barnum’s infamous quote about suckers.