quote:

Originally posted by PASig:

quote:

Originally posted by FRANKT:
These may be acceptable for Europe with their [generally] lower-current loads but I think wire nuts still have a bright future here for a while.

Lower current? Isn’t Europe 220 volts and near same amperage as US @ 110 volts?

Mmmm...could be. I've been under the impression that the "typical" European wall outlet is around 13A @ 240VAC max where the max for this side of the pond for a "typical" wall outlet is 20A @ 120VAC. That would make the max current in Europe about half of the max US residential current. Momma's European 1,000 watt hair dryer will draw only about half the current of Momma's US 1,000 watt hair dryer. But I'm probably all wet.

quote:

Originally posted by shiftyvtec:
I would not let my home get wired with them. Same concept as the back-stab type outlets and switches. I think you'll find most electricians are against them.

I replaced every outlet in my home with the newer Decora style. The originals (1987) were installed using the back-stab method, many that I removed made a less than stellar connection. Every outlet got wired the traditional way by creating a hook in the conductor and screwing down firm.

Think about how little contact area there is to transfer current; a little tab of flat tinned metal contacting a round copper conductor does not offer much surface area.

This plus what excam, cas, cparktd, and Some Shot said.

PS I'm a Master electrician with 20 years of experience in retail, commercial, and residential. Not a single electrician I know will use them.

PPS, bet you can't guess the largest percent item I repair is? Stab in wiring on outlets and switches. When those have been around for fourty years I'll probably be fixing them too.

US 110, Europe 220

Hell yeah I'd use that!

quote:

Originally posted by ffips:
Don't be the fifth ape.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but… I'm not familiar with this expression. Explain, please? Thank you.

Thanks, Skins (and others) for confirming what I thought when I first opened the tread. I've seen those connectors used in overhead lighting and, as someone else mentioned, had to replace them. Wire nuts are here to stay.

I do not trust them like I do proper installed nuts

The SUCK and are a FIRE hazard.

As time goes on they contract and expand because of the heat from the wire and the tension gets little on the connectors and then the heat goes way up and they melt and cause fires. Some of the Euro Yachts use that method with melting results on Terminal blocks and etc.

quote:

Originally posted by shiftyvtec:

Think about how little contact area there is to transfer current; a little tab of flat tinned metal contacting a round copper conductor does not offer much surface area.

And the fact the spring tension is lessoned by heat (current is heat).

quote:

Originally posted by vthoky:

quote:

Originally posted by ffips:
Don't be the fifth ape.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but… I'm not familiar with this expression. Explain, please? Thank you.

Thanks, Skins (and others) for confirming what I thought when I first opened the tread. I've seen those connectors used in overhead lighting and, as someone else mentioned, had to replace them. Wire nuts are here to stay.

All too often we do what we do because that is how it always has been. Someone touched on a similar item in the plumbing world. Initially "sharkbite" fittings likely got the same reaponse and are now more widely accepted.

If you google "five apes.doc" it should pull up my reference. Sometimes, it's okay to change, maybe this is one? Thread vote appears to be it isn't though.

These likely have a place where they excel. Applying them in the wrong environment and it resulting in failure doesn't mean they are total crap. It means they weren't designed for that.

quote:

Originally posted by ffips:

quote:

Originally posted by vthoky:

quote:

Originally posted by ffips:
Don't be the fifth ape.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but… I'm not familiar with this expression. Explain, please? Thank you.

Thanks, Skins (and others) for confirming what I thought when I first opened the tread. I've seen those connectors used in overhead lighting and, as someone else mentioned, had to replace them. Wire nuts are here to stay.

All too often we do what we do because that is how it always has been. Someone touched on a similar item in the plumbing world. Initially "sharkbite" fittings likely got the same reaponse and are now more widely accepted.

If you google "five apes.doc" it should pull up my reference. Sometimes, it's okay to change, maybe this is one? Thread vote appears to be it isn't though.

These likely have a place where they excel. Applying them in the wrong environment and it resulting in failure doesn't mean they are total crap. It means they weren't designed for that.

Negative, they're simply a shortcut. Most of the european electrical components are severely under built compared to US electrical products. Euro trash.

I think those are code on connections outside of a JB In some jurisdictions

I see all the electricians here using them on lighting jobs with Lay in fixtures

Edit....
These are the ones that the NEC recently required For commercial lighting

I’ll add to what I stated earlier. I dont use them for something that carries a serious load. But for light fixtures and similar light loads, they are perfectly safe.

quote:

Originally posted by ElKabong:
I think those are code on connections outside of a JB In some jurisdictions

I see all the electricians here using them on lighting jobs with Lay in fixtures

Edit....
These are the ones that the NEC recently required For commercial lighting

These are different than OPs connectors. These are disconnects for ballasts, and as you said now required on commercial lighting.

The big difference is that they only carry the load of one fixture on them. The wires are pigtailed then plugged into those. 1 amp draw vs 15a or 20a when used in plugs and switches. I'm fine with them, in fact I like them. Since I can't turn off lights in the middle of the mall or an office building this allows a safe way to replace ballasts with the fixture hot.

These on the other hand will likely get me shocked one day.



They are often sloppily installed with exposed copper and the wires can come out when pushing connections into wiring compartment. Additionally you can have near a 20a load passing through them on the first fixture in the chain, so higher chance of failure due to load.

I had one fail at my house. It was installed by a contractor.

I've used a countless amount of that type of connector. Mostly in controls for industrial woodworking machinery... Never had one fail that I installed. I like them.

As a former Journeyman Electrician, I would use those on low voltage / low amperage circuits such as outdoor lighting or control circuits. But I definitely would not use those in my house or any other house either.

I agree with what some others have stated about the very small contact area.

John

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:

quote:

Originally posted by FRANKT:
These may be acceptable for Europe with their [generally] lower-current loads but I think wire nuts still have a bright future here for a while.

Lower current? Isn’t Europe 220 volts and near same amperage as US @ 110 volts?

Yes, lower current. You got your Volts and you got your Amps (current). The higher the voltage, the lower the amperage (current) for the same amount of power.

ETA: Whoops, missed your bit about the same amperage. No, the amperage to feed similar devices is not the same, it is closer to half the amperage here. You may be thinking of the frequency which is closer. In the UK at least, their grid runs at 50 hertz while ours runs at 60 hertz.

I've seen them but never used them instead of wire nuts in a box.

I have used them when they are pre-installed on new lights. Makes wiring new can lights and commercial fluorescent lights easier.

A few years back when they first started showing up on lights I saw a guy cutting them off and wirer nutting everything. Not because he thought it was better he just had no idea what they where.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:

quote:

Originally posted by FRANKT:
These may be acceptable for Europe with their [generally] lower-current loads but I think wire nuts still have a bright future here for a while.

Lower current? Isn’t Europe 220 volts and near same amperage as US @ 110 volts?

Yes, lower current. You got your Volts and you got your Amps (current). The higher the voltage, the lower the amperage (current) for the same amount of power.

ETA: Whoops, missed your bit about the same amperage. No, the amperage to feed similar devices is not the same, it is closer to half the amperage here. You may be thinking of the frequency which is closer. In the UK at least, their grid runs at 50 hertz while ours runs at 60 hertz.

Also Europes electric being 50 hertz versus 60 hertz uses even less electricity. Something at 12 amps 60 hertz, would use 10 amps at 50 hertz and if it was US 115 volts it would use 24 amps.

So the same U.S. toaster oven using 14 amps at 115 volts in the U.S., would only Use about 5.5 amps in Europe with 230 volt, 50 cycles.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:

quote:

Originally posted by FRANKT:
These may be acceptable for Europe with their [generally] lower-current loads but I think wire nuts still have a bright future here for a while.

Lower current? Isn’t Europe 220 volts and near same amperage as US @ 110 volts?

Yes, lower current. You got your Volts and you got your Amps (current). The higher the voltage, the lower the amperage (current) for the same amount of power.

ETA: Whoops, missed your bit about the same amperage. No, the amperage to feed similar devices is not the same, it is closer to half the amperage here. You may be thinking of the frequency which is closer. In the UK at least, their grid runs at 50 hertz while ours runs at 60 hertz.

Also Europes electric being 50 hertz versus 60 hertz uses even less electricity. Something at 12 amps 60 hertz, would use 10 amps at 50 hertz and if it was US 115 volts it would use 24 amps.

So the same U.S. toaster oven using 14 amps at 115 volts in the U.S., would only Use about 5.5 amps in Europe with 230 volt, 50 cycles.

Are you sure about that? I can't see how and resistive load would be changed by frequency. In fact I don't think it would affect anything except motors, which spin faster/slower based on changes to frequency.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:

quote:

Originally posted by FRANKT:
These may be acceptable for Europe with their [generally] lower-current loads but I think wire nuts still have a bright future here for a while.

Lower current? Isn’t Europe 220 volts and near same amperage as US @ 110 volts?

Yes, lower current. You got your Volts and you got your Amps (current). The higher the voltage, the lower the amperage (current) for the same amount of power.

ETA: Whoops, missed your bit about the same amperage. No, the amperage to feed similar devices is not the same, it is closer to half the amperage here. You may be thinking of the frequency which is closer. In the UK at least, their grid runs at 50 hertz while ours runs at 60 hertz.

Also Europes electric being 50 hertz versus 60 hertz uses even less electricity. Something at 12 amps 60 hertz, would use 10 amps at 50 hertz and if it was US 115 volts it would use 24 amps.

So the same U.S. toaster oven using 14 amps at 115 volts in the U.S., would only Use about 5.5 amps in Europe with 230 volt, 50 cycles.

Are you sure about that? I can't see how and resistive load would be changed by frequency. In fact I don't think it would affect anything except motors, which spin faster/slower based on changes to frequency.

Yes, motors spin faster and use less electricity and things like that. Most things have motors etc. that use the majority of electricity in a home, dryer, refrigerator, a/c, etc.