quote:

Pick a fucking different baker, save the legal costs for a super duper awesome gay honeymoon. How does it benefit a man's love for his husband to fight in court for ten years against the guy who they would have preferred love to force to make their cake? Wouldn't their marriage be better if they picked the next best baker, and enjoyed their bliss associated with their wedding?

FIFY

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:

quote:

...fight in court for ten years against the guy who they would have preferred love to force to make their cake? Wouldn't their marriage be better if they picked the next best baker, and enjoyed their bliss associated with their wedding?

FIFY

I was in CA for the Prop 8. One of the LGBT leaders commented along the lines of "This is not about equal legal rights, we already have such. This is about having gov't authority to punish any who would openly have moral disagreement".

quote:

in CA for the Prop 8. One of the LGBT leaders commented along the lines of "This is not about equal legal rights, we already have such. This is about having gov't authority to punish any who would openly have moral disagreement".

This is pretty much the definition of tyranny, and in fact quite totalitarian, isn't it? Punish as in lose your job (Brendan Eich of Mozilla).

quote:

Originally posted by sjtill:

quote:

in CA for the Prop 8. One of the LGBT leaders commented along the lines of "This is not about equal legal rights, we already have such. This is about having gov't authority to punish any who would openly have moral disagreement".

This is pretty much the definition of tyranny, and in fact quite totalitarian, isn't it? Punish as in lose your job (Brendan Eich of Mozilla).

The hotel guy in San Diego caught some grief over his support for Prop. 8, IIRC.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:

Being that I didn't give the impression of refuting any argument, my post doesn't fall under the definition of a straw (man ) argument.

But since you responded, it's not clear from your post how you resolve my question: should the electrician have the right not to provide services based on religious rights? You could even change the gay couple's house to a church of Satan place of worship or a place where porn is commercially filmed (assuming the electrician's beliefs are antithetical and the electrician sees bringing up the building to code as validating whatever behavior his religion outlines as prohibited).

Should the place's owners have any recourse, how many rejections on the same basis can they qualify for the recourse, and what should the recourse be?

I forget the name for what I'm trying to do which is finding the "boundaries" of an issue where the same reasonable person would "flip" their viewpoint. For me in the actual case, the idea that there certainly would be other bakers willing to bake a cake for the couple should have been the couple's recourse and take away the justification for suing the baker in court.

Maybe straw man was inaccurate, but the what if you present is a substantially different situation. For me, the difference is whether the relationship is relevant to the service being provided or not.

For the bakery, the relationship is the focus of the celebration and reason for service they are asking a vendor to participate in. Not the case with electricians, plumbers, and the like. Additionally, bakers, musicians, photographers, etc. while providing a “service” also are invested artistically to a degree and their services, I believe, are akin to artistic creation and expression. For this reason deeply held personal or religious beliefs could legitimately come into play where they would not for a simple technical service devoid of personal expression.

I offer photography services, my primary work for hire is real estate shots. I also do landscape and wildlife work. Should I be forced or compelled to shoot a wedding, any wedding?

An artist’s work becomes part of their portfolio and reflects on them. If they believe a particular job will not help their reputation or could possibly harm it, shouldn’t they have the right to refuse to associate their professional identity with it?

An electrician or plumbers work is unrelated to the person it was performed for and it is done to an industry standard code. The work is either done right or it is not, it does not get judged on artistry, style, or presentation like the work of an artist.

In your scenario, say the electrician is willing to do the work, but doesn’t work nights or weekends which is when the client wants it done? Should the service provider be compelled to accommodate the client’s schedule? How much control should a potential customer be given in forcing a service provider to vary their style and method of providing the service?


I honestly don’t have an answer to your question. It is a complex situation, so difficult to apply a simple one-size fits all answer. I like the idea of a business having the right to refuse service, but given our history I can understand the need for a certain level of protection from legitimate discrimination.

In a perfect world, the free market would provide an answer and I suspect it probably already has, how much effort would have been required to find another baker willing to take the job?

At the end of the day, I just don’t understand someone wanting to do business with someone who doesn’t want that business when there are competitors who do.

He could have saved some hassle and said I don't like your attitude so I'm not making your cake.

How about this (I put no real thought into this - just crossed my mind) based on public defender assignments (where a criminal is assigned counsel outside the the PD office if needed):

Private businesses are free to decline patronage for any reason. If a patron has difficulty in finding a business for their needs (by criteria TBD), then a business is randomly selected by a public agency.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
This battle was lost years ago. The courts have decided anyone offering "public accomodation" could not discriminate based on race. (Lunch counters-remember?) All that remains is whether the courts accept that homosexuality is genetic or a choice. If a choice, fine. If they accept it is biologically driven, the bakers will likely lose. Private property truly is not, the government will tell you who to serve.

I don't think this is sound logic. I see a distinction between refusing to serve some random item off the counter and specifically making an item that goes against the baker's religious beliefs. The baker should not be allowed to refuse the counter item and should not be forced to make the gay wedding cake.

quote:

Originally posted by 1967Goat:
This cake shop is 20 minutes from my house. I have today off of work, so I think I will go down to their store and buy something. I'll also give them a $20 for their legal troubles.

If anyone wants to make a donation, email me (bio) or reply to this thread. I'll give them the donation and you can pay me back via paypal or send me a check/MO. They also have a link to donate on their website. I'll head out about 2:30 today.

http://masterpiececakes.com/

HA! That's just a reason to not listen to your wife work day!

I am all for limiting governmental overreach into my life.

Good questions in here to ponder. Sad thing is, this company is also getting crucified in the public as well. Here is their yelp! page, most of the 'reviews' have nothing to do with the products or service.

Masterpiece Cakeshop Yelp!

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The Justice Department on Thursday filed a brief supporting the Colorado baker

It is refreshing to see the Justice Department on the side of justice for a change.

So if I go to a restaurant owned and operated by a muslim and order pork chops and a side order of clams and he refuses my order I can now sue because he is discriminating against me because I'm a Christian ?

How about the stores that are gun free zones are they discriminating against me because I am exercising a Constitutional Right just the as freedom of religion, etc (and sexual orientation is not)?

Would a church be required to marry gays?

This is a slippery slope.

So what happens when Steve Crowder goes to a Muslim owned bakery and tries to buy a gay cake?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmdiqB_8l2k


...and does the MSM report on this? Naahhh...