Musing of the day....would the world be better without Religion/faith??
quote:
My question is, would the world be a better place sans religion? We have killed ALOT of people in the name of our chosen deity (whom I believe to be shaking his or her head at thinking we are idjits).
Who is this We? I have killed no one.
For whom are you responsible?
"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." - Ezekiel 18:20
This passage teaches the principle of individual responsibility in salvation. Each person is accountable before God for His own life.
"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown
"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor
May 10, 2017, 07:56 AM
darthfuster
Like it or not, believe it or not, liberty and prosperity are directly related to morality. Morality is disseminated through religion. As is the method of evil, there is counterfeit religion which preaches destruction, captivity and desolation which result from false principles. Without religion to teach a common standard, mankind would eventually decay into base animalistic selfish behavior. That is where the real destruction awaits. Need an example? Look at the thug culture.
You’re a lying dog-faced pony soldier
May 10, 2017, 08:29 AM
220-9er
quote:
Originally posted by Crom: No need to speculate; we have social experiments on this, conducted for the first time in human history, just within the last century. Maoist China, Stalinist Russia, and Cambodia under Pol Pot were all officially communist and officially atheist. Religion was heavily suppressed and practitioners persecuted and even executed. The result was three genocides that make the Nazi-led holocaust "small" by comparison.
The idea that religion causes wars and killing is entirely a myth. Religions have all attempted to CURB mankind's baser instincts, but they have done so IMPERFECTLY. Hence, wars and killings still occur, even under the most peace-promoting of religions.
But in the absence of religion, we seem to get a very rapid slide into abject barbarism, and the perpetrators can "rationalize" why they are doing it: to bring about a Godless, communist Utopia.
This is why the much-touted "reason" is not a valid basis for an ethic or morality: a human mind can "rationalize" anything.
In all the cases mentioned here, there was religion. Not based on what we may think of as religion, but based on a leaders personality, promoted and required by the government.
There is a certain percentage of dogs that want to bite and a certain percentage of humans that want to be assholes. A small percentage use religion as justification (ISIS), for others (probably most) religion or the lasting historical influences of it temper their base instincts.
May 10, 2017, 09:30 AM
roberth
quote:
Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
quote:
Originally posted by darthfuster: No.
Had your answer at the first post.
Yup.
quote:
Originally posted by braillediver: Imagine there's no heaven /snip
Swell, John Lennon and his ignorant vision of utopia.
May 10, 2017, 09:34 AM
parabellum
Oh, are we posting song lyrics as some sort of profound statement?
OK, here's mine
You got your million bucks You got your flashy sports car You got your trophy girls Man you think you're a star
You got your teeth bleached You like to play the rich game Yeah you think you're a cowboy The new Jesse James But I could kick your ass I could jack your jaw Put you flat in the dirt boy Yeah I'd have a ball So go ahead and act tough Like your John Wayne's son But things can change fast I can kick your ass
Tried to steal my girl Better bring your big friends Another one or two Cause your gonna need them You're a little to small To be calling me names I'm 'bout to knock that smirky little grin Right off of your face
I can kick your ass I could jack your jaw Put you flat in the dirt boy Yeah I'd have a ball So go ahead and act tough Like your John Wayne's son But things can change fast I can kick your ass
.. Oh how about it boy..
Yeahh I could kick your ass I could jack your jaw Put you flat in the dirt boy Hell I'd have a ball So go ahead and act tough Like your John Wayne's son But things can change fast I could kick your ass
May 10, 2017, 09:41 AM
Jim Shugart
quote:
Originally posted by roberth:
quote:
Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
quote:
Originally posted by darthfuster: No.
Had your answer at the first post.
Yup.
quote:
Originally posted by braillediver: Imagine there's no heaven /snip
Swell, John Lennon and his ignorant vision of utopia.
Here's Ben Shapiro's take on Imagine: (He doesn't like it very much. )
When a thing is funny, search it carefully for a hidden truth. - George Bernard Shaw
May 10, 2017, 09:46 AM
46and2
I think it's the single greatest waste of efforts and potential the world/humanity has ever known and continues to struggle with, and a clear net-negative in the broad sense.
Pondering the big questions is one thing, but the degree to which it has been taken is something else entirely, and we'd be better off without the vast majority of that stuff.
Most believers will never agree, of course. Such is life. But I rest well knowing there are fewer and fewer believers each day, which is a clear sign of progress to me and many.
One day we'll shake off these superstitions. I hope I live to see it, but doubt I will.
May 10, 2017, 09:55 AM
LDD
Religion is inevitable:
Humanity --> War --> foxholes --> religion.
May 10, 2017, 09:59 AM
parabellum
quote:
Originally posted by LDD: Religion is inevitable:
Humanity --> War --> foxholes --> religion.
Yes. For anyone truly interested in the subject of Man's relation to/creation of God, read Karen Armstrong's A History of God
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“What sickens me about left-wing people, especially the intellectuals, is their utter ignorance of the way things actually happen.” ~ George Orwell
"That's one thing about intellectuals. They've proved that you can be absolutely brilliant and have no idea what's going on." ~ Woody Allen
May 10, 2017, 10:04 AM
flesheatingvirus
Speaking as an atheist, I'm just not seeing that it is possible any time soon. Even if you waved a magic wand and all theology disappeared, people would find other things to take to that level.
An example would be state religions like North Korea, China, etc. Most people need, for some reason, to believe in something to the point that it becomes religion. There are many gangs like that, as well. Many humans need to believe in anything other than themselves for some reason.
While I think it would be nice for all of it to fade away into history, I'm not convinced it would make anything better. People will find other reasons to squabble.
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-- Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past me I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. --
May 10, 2017, 10:06 AM
ulsterman
If it wasn't religion, it would be something else.
May 10, 2017, 10:16 AM
parabellum
quote:
Originally posted by ulsterman: If it wasn't religion, it would be something else.
...which would then, by default, become one's religion.
_______________________________________________
“What sickens me about left-wing people, especially the intellectuals, is their utter ignorance of the way things actually happen.” ~ George Orwell
"That's one thing about intellectuals. They've proved that you can be absolutely brilliant and have no idea what's going on." ~ Woody Allen
May 10, 2017, 10:45 AM
JALLEN
I'm in the midst of reading "The Complete Story of Civilization" by Will and Ariel Durant. 11 volumes, ~12,000 pages.
Humankind has worshiped a bewildering variety of gods with a bewildering variety of characteristics, traits, relationships, shapes, locations, from sun gods, moon gods, in the more than 6,000 year of history we have some record about. Philosphers have mulled and argued over these matters over the milleniums.
Even within a particular religious group, there is no consensus, Sunni, Shia, Orthodox, Reformed, Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, Druids, Buddhists and more besides.
Many conclude that religion in some form is essential to motivate humans to some form of morality. You'll be "good" if you risk going to hell.
Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.
When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson
"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
May 10, 2017, 10:51 AM
ulsterman
quote:
Originally posted by parabellum:
quote:
Originally posted by ulsterman: If it wasn't religion, it would be something else.
...which would then, by default, become one's religion.
The wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round.
May 10, 2017, 10:56 AM
chellim1
Religious participation must be voluntary if it is to have any meaning. Our relationship with God is an individual relationship. Therefore, the biggest problems with religion are in subjugation. It cannot be spread by the sword.
"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown
"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor
May 10, 2017, 11:02 AM
MNSIG
quote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:Humankind has worshiped a bewildering variety of gods with a bewildering variety of characteristics, traits, relationships, shapes, locations, from sun gods, moon gods, in the more than 6,000 year of history we have some record about.
Every single one of those believers was certain they were correct, had the right beliefs, read the correct book and practiced the best rituals.
May 10, 2017, 11:07 AM
parabellum
quote:
Originally posted by MNSIG:
quote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:Humankind has worshiped a bewildering variety of gods with a bewildering variety of characteristics, traits, relationships, shapes, locations, from sun gods, moon gods, in the more than 6,000 year of history we have some record about.
Every single one of those believers was certain they were correct, had the right beliefs, read the correct book and practiced the best rituals.
What does that have to do with the man's point? If you want to ridicule religion, you don't have to quote anyone in this thread to do it. Just speak your piece.
Either you have an agenda, or you missed JALLEN's point entirely.
_______________________________________________
“What sickens me about left-wing people, especially the intellectuals, is their utter ignorance of the way things actually happen.” ~ George Orwell
"That's one thing about intellectuals. They've proved that you can be absolutely brilliant and have no idea what's going on." ~ Woody Allen
May 10, 2017, 11:27 AM
MNSIG
^^^ I don't think I missed his point.
Humans have always been drawn to religion as a means of wrapping their heads around things we don't (and never will) understand. The specifics change according to the time period and culture involved. I'm not ridiculing religion, but think it's over the top when any one group claims to have the correct answers to questions that are beyond human understanding.
May 10, 2017, 11:32 AM
rusbro
This debate between Sam Harris debate and Rabbi David Wolpe delves into the topic. Harris is the guy who's criticism of Islam set off Ben Affleck to accuse him of being "gross and racist" on Bill Maher's show a year or so ago. There's tons of his stuff on youtube. I find his arguments to be very solid on the topic of religion, and Islam in particular.
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