quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
As I understand it, the tower pinging isn't very precise though, correct? You could triangulate somewhat, but even then it'd be nowhere close to GPS.

It has gone much further than just cell towers and satellites. Look at your phone's wireless internet settings. Even if you never log into those networks, data is still stored on when and where you were within range of those networks.

I'm seeing 8 different detected networks right now on my phone. If I move to the other side of my house, that list changes slightly. That information (which networks are detected by your phone at what times) can be used to narrow your phone's location down about as well as GPS data (even better when indoors). The same can be done with Bluetooth as well.

Another interesting fact: cellphones can be pinged even when "dead" or turned off. Yeah, I know... sounds a bit conspiracy theorish, but feel free to ask anyone who has worked in Search & Rescue for a long time, they should be able to vet that statement.

quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:


Supposedly they can't track you if you turn it off.

Not remotely true.

Ask me how I know. (I can't tell you).

Anybody that thinks they have any semblance of privacy today is living in a blissful fog of ignorance.

The list of those watching and listening is long, and wide. The list of those who care depends on a lot, including what you're worth, and your value isn't just monetary. Your value is information, and you may be nothing more than peripheral information for someone else...but may be monitored anyway.

It doesn't take much, and it's not just metadata that's groomed; if you have a smart phone, its subject to monitoring on multiple levels, and if you turn it off, hoping for privacy...it doesn't matter. It can still be accessed, tracked, and used.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:

As I understand it, the tower pinging isn't very precise though, correct? You could triangulate somewhat, but even then it'd be nowhere close to GPS.

Depends what you mean by accuracy. A 250 million dollar new airliner with GPS is only required to be within 4 nautical miles of it's position on a long oceanic trip...but your cell data can put you in a very specific location in a building and track your path around the building complex. It can be very specific.

Your location is only one aspect; there's a lot more to be gained from that phone, if desired, including voice and video. You'll never know.

It's not just your phone, either. Got a health bracelet that monitors your heartbeat, keeps track of your steps, and so on? A Fitbit?

Independent parties were able to map out buildings and movements in the buildings in locations like Diego Garcia, a very remote military base in the Indian Ocean...using fitbits and similar gear. You might be surprised just how much can be done with what you're carrying, or using in your home. Got the ring doorbell, and cameras in your home? You're not the only one that can view them.

Privacy? Mostly illusion.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH

Why should it be necessarily difficult? And, no, I've not come across the idea that it's better for a thousand criminals go free. Also, I know this one court decided the 4th amendment rights of uninvolved innocent parties were violated which then threw out the conviction of the criminal. But the news is that it was this one court versus other courts who previously allowed such polling. I honestly don't quite buy that the government getting a list of people who were in an area at a given time which may include me is a violation of my 4th amendment. We have cameras in a lot of locations. I've even seen different videos from different cameras spliced together to track a person from the scene of a crime to another point. They can look at the video and see who were in the area if the crime happen to be committed off camera and investigate the people who were there. Even before cameras, police would ask people of interest, "Where were you on such a date and a given time?"

I'm open and willing to be persuaded.

Let's start with the idea behind getting a warrant. Items to be searched, searched for, or seized are to be very specifically defined and as limited in scope as possible. Casting a wide net during a fishing expedition to find everyone in a given area at a given time doesn't exactly meet that requirement, does it?

Let's continue with the potential for abuse of this. Government power is an actual, documented slippery slope such that if they're given the ability to use this for any scenario, they'll eventually request and grant themselves permission to use this in additional scenarios. If you need further proof, look how things unraveled once they defined the interstate commerce clause. Government does not need to be able to possess or use data about large portions of the population.

This information may seem very inconsequential to you, but an awful lot about a person can be derived from such data.

It's a pandora's box best left unopened. It's bad enough the cellular device and other providers are gathering, storing, and using the information both internally and externally.

IIRC I read some tech guru who explained that cell phone "GPS" recently is mostly triangulation from cell towers. It's much closer and faster to exploit known fixed locations without the longer wait and calculation times of sats hundreds of miles in space with low watt signals. The power was compared to a headlight in high beam from them. A cell tower triangulation takes a lot less resources out of the phone.

I have a Bushnell Backtracker and it can take as much as 2-3 minutes using actual GPS, the phone will call up a map location under 20 seconds easily. Since we tend to be impatient as consumers it seems the cell owners made an expedient decision. It is effectively better than GPS in it's response times. Now consider every GM with Onstar is using it, too. We've had the operator interact even tho we don't have an account - apparently a glitch sent an emergency signal and they do respond.

On a 650 mile trip to the coast we sometimes use Maps on data which is basically triangulating local cells and showing us where we are on the basic road map. I've done the same using Maps while hunting and verified my location compared to my assessment with map and compass. Their are two disadvantages of relying on that service, one, the power consumption of the device - instruments like a Suunto Core will eat a dozen batteries in a weeks hike, secondly, the grid can and will go down. During a local EF5 aftermath there was no cell service in the center of town, an emergency unit was brought in for FEMA's use. It became the only landmark visible for a half mile in any direction.

As for the .Gov accumulating the data, yes. Altho unconstitutional, the NSA has a switching center in every land line gear house which then copies and sends all the "metadata" in bulk to their facilities. Every last bit and byte is then stored - but none of it is legally admissable in court. If an agency resorts to it, which causes a lot of searching for terms or times, it takes time, and every part of it has to be reconfirmed thru parallel discovery. You, as an agent, could know more about what went on than any one participant, but you have to go out, get interviews, reconstruct electronic data files from the utilities and services, make the dots connect completely, and then show evidence to a grand jury for indictment a crime occurred. No, the average cop doesn't have the time or resources. His report goes up the chain and others access it as needed for a larger investigation. Absent the perp in cuffs, it's not something readily accessible.

We worry about all the data being misused, and we should, what gets misused more quickly and pointedly is when it's directed at us personally - closing down our bank account, shutting off our phone - which in China is the ONLY method of payment allowed - or cancelling our media access. That conflict is already going on and data being exchanged illegaly is being pursued in courts.

If we don't prevail we lose, more importantly, we didn't listen 20 years ago when we were warned and now we are paying the price. As usual. And BTW - your smart TV is always listening now. Add that algorithm picking up keywords and tuning ads to your family conversations.

The argument is that polling cell towers for who was nearby isn't fundamentally different from putting cameras in public places, or even from interviewing people who were there about who else was there (which we would all agree is fine). In other words, where you are, especially if you are out in public, isn't really a piece of private information. It is collecting data you create about your own, observable activity. The police could follow you around and see where you go, and that wouldn't be improper. This is just an extension of that sort of surveillance or investigation - that is the argument.

We don't like it because it seems too easy, and maybe that is an important difference. That is one of the counterarguments.

quote:

Originally posted by Tirod:
IIRC I read some tech guru who explained that cell phone "GPS" recently is mostly triangulation from cell towers. It's much closer and faster to exploit known fixed locations without the longer wait and calculation times of sats hundreds of miles in space with low watt signals. The power was compared to a headlight in high beam from them. A cell tower triangulation takes a lot less resources out of the phone.

I have a Bushnell Backtracker and it can take as much as 2-3 minutes using actual GPS, the phone will call up a map location under 20 seconds easily. Since we tend to be impatient as consumers it seems the cell owners made an expedient decision. It is effectively better than GPS in it's response times.

The GPS in phones is actual GPS using GPS (US-operated) satellites, and depending on the specific device you're using and its settings, GLONASS (Russia-operated, worldwide coverage), Galileo (EU-operated, worldwide coverage), and BeiDou (China-operated, worldwide coverage) satellites. One kind-of exception to this is that for a long time, WiFi-only iPads (the ones with no provision for cellular data service) did not have GPS chips and couldn't provide location data. I'm not sure if that is still true.

The distance to the satellites and the low power of their signals is irrelevant to how long it takes to calculate a location.

The reason a phone can get a GPS position in a few seconds and your Bushnell Backtrack can take several minutes is not because the phone isn't getting a GPS position. It is. It comes down to one big reason.

The way a GPS location is calculated, the GPS satellites essentially send out what time it is, and based on knowing where the satellites are and the relative delays in receiving the time signal from different satellites, you can calculate your location. A normal GPS device does not know, by itself, where all the GPS satellites are. Each GPS satellite itself, besides the time signal, transmits both an "almanac," very rough information for where ALL the satellites are, and "ephemera," very high-precision information for exactly where that one satellite is. This data is transmitted very, VERY slowly (50 bits per second).

So, a normal GPS device has to see what satellites are up, receive the almanac from one of them, decide approximately where it is and which satellites to use, then receive the ephemera from each of the satellites it is going to use to calculate its GPS position.

It's not actually calculating the GPS position that takes a long time, it's receiving all this data from the satellites. Once the device has the data, calculating the location is relatively easy. Lots of low-power GPS units designed for outdoor activities can take several minutes to get an initial position (like your Bushnell Backtrack), but once they have all the data, they calculate the GPS position every second. Some GPS chips can even calculate position 10 times per second.

While a phone CAN follow this entire procedure to get a GPS position, it generally doesn't. Instead, it uses something called "AGPS" or "Assisted GPS." Basically, instead of very, very slowly receiving the overall GPS almanac from one GPS satellite and the GPS ephemera from each GPS satellite, a phone will download the almanac and ephemera over its internet connection in a second or two and jump straight into calculating a location based on the time signals from the satellites.

In short: the GPS in a phone is still GPS, and is not dependent on cell towers, a cell connection, or an internet connection, but can use an internet connection to shortcut a very slow part of the initialization process.

One, no convictions were thrown out in the linked article.

Two, the evidence wasn’t even thrown out as the suspect is still in jail awaiting trial.

Three, the suspect was caught on surveillance video with a phone to his ear. The police were unable to identify the guy based on the video alone, so they got a list of 15 people who were on the phone in the area at the time of the video. That list was narrowed down to 3 people before Google gave up the personal information. That’s just good basic police work.

Cogent, intelligent arguments both pro and con have been presented. I'll have to consider this further. I'm grateful to the group for such an entertaining and thought-provoking debate.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
As I understand it, the tower pinging isn't very precise though, correct? You could triangulate somewhat, but even then it'd be nowhere close to GPS.

Locating someone's cell phone using triangulation from cell towers isn't all that accurate. It can place you within something like 3/4 of a square mile.

Here's an explanation and for what it's worth, I DF'd a bunch of different people back in my repeater ownership days. We did a lot better than this, but then we were using super directional antennas, not fairly wide pattern antennas like cell towers use.

https://transition.fcc.gov/psh...S_WhitePaper0515.pdf

And as far as tracking a phone that's turned off, yes and no.

https://www.imobie.com/icloud-...at-is-turned-off.htm

When your phone is turned off or runs out of battery, you won’t be able to track its real-time location using the methods described above. However, the “Send Last Location” feature allows you to see the last location of your cell phone before it’s off. When your phone is turned off or runs out of battery, you won’t be able to track its real-time location using the methods described above. However, the “Send Last Location” feature allows you to see the last location of your cell phone before it’s off. You can also turn on the “Notify When Found” feature, which sends you an email notification when your phone is back on.

Tower triangulation isn’t going to put you right on someone. I don’t know about the LE world but for military SIGINT it’s used to develop a pattern of life. There are other tools that can put you right on top of someone without GPS active. Triangulation can corroborate indicators that someone is showing up where you believe them to be showing up.

quote:

Leave phone at home when planning nefarious activity...

yo man, if you do that, how will you record it and post it to facetagram or instabook, snapperchapped, accounts to get some hits.

quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:

When your phone is turned off or runs out of battery, you won’t be able to track its real-time location using the methods described above. However, the “Send Last Location” feature allows you to see the last location of your cell phone before it’s off. When your phone is turned off or runs out of battery, you won’t be able to track its real-time location using the methods described above. However, the “Send Last Location” feature allows you to see the last location of your cell phone before it’s off. You can also turn on the “Notify When Found” feature, which sends you an email notification when your phone is back on.

Not true.

With that phone turned off, not much has changed from turned on. If you have a smart phone, not only is it still trackable, but it can still be used remotely, including audio and camera, and can still be controlled remotely by third parties.

The ONLY way to stop that is to remove the battery. Most smart phones today don't have that as an option.

Just because you can't use your "find my iphone" feature, doesn't mean it's not trackable or useable by others...who won't be using the "find my iphone" feature, or software.

Just for kicks and grins go to What3Words.com LINK on your cell phone and see where it places you exactly within a 3 meter square (10 square feet for us Americans). You can also use your desktop computer.

It is a really cool website and APP that you can set locations, find someone lost or injured, if it's you then you can send those 3 words to anyone else, and they can see exactly where you are and either navigate to you or send someone else to you.

Covers the whole world, I think, with just 3 words per 3 meter square. Amazing.

Anyway, I'm sitting here in my house and it can tell exactly where I'm at in the house, and if I move to another part of the house, or go outside, it will update my position almost instantly.

It should be amazingly useful for "normal" purposes, but we can see that it can be used for bad purposes, depends on who is using it.

FWIW I think it's a lot easier to use than dropping a pin.

But, be aware, it's electronic data.
.

A grounded Faraday box will block any tracking of a cell phone.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:

When your phone is turned off or runs out of battery, you won’t be able to track its real-time location using the methods described above. However, the “Send Last Location” feature allows you to see the last location of your cell phone before it’s off. When your phone is turned off or runs out of battery, you won’t be able to track its real-time location using the methods described above. However, the “Send Last Location” feature allows you to see the last location of your cell phone before it’s off. You can also turn on the “Notify When Found” feature, which sends you an email notification when your phone is back on.

Not true.

With that phone turned off, not much has changed from turned on. If you have a smart phone, not only is it still trackable, but it can still be used remotely, including audio and camera, and can still be controlled remotely by third parties.

The ONLY way to stop that is to remove the battery. Most smart phones today don't have that as an option.

Just because you can't use your "find my iphone" feature, doesn't mean it's not trackable or useable by others...who won't be using the "find my iphone" feature, or software.

And guess what? If you put a CSM right next to a phone that's turned off, it shows nothing. Not a signal of any kind being put out.

So no, you can't locate it.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

Not true.

With that phone turned off, not much has changed from turned on. If you have a smart phone, not only is it still trackable, but it can still be used remotely, including audio and camera, and can still be controlled remotely by third parties.

The ONLY way to stop that is to remove the battery. Most smart phones today don't have that as an option.

Just because you can't use your "find my iphone" feature, doesn't mean it's not trackable or useable by others...who won't be using the "find my iphone" feature, or software.

Do you have a source or cite that confirms this?

quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:

And guess what? If you put a CSM right next to a phone that's turned off, it shows nothing. Not a signal of any kind being put out.

So no, you can't locate it.

Okay, sparky. I guess you've done this before, then.

It can be turned on remotely, too, and yes, it can be used to transmit both audio, and video, but you believe whatever makes you feel safe. Most people do.

I tried out the What3Words thing. Off by probably 250 feet and put me in the back room of another apartment building!
Not so good for me!

I apologize if I missed it on the first page, but what about removing the SIM card?

quote:

Originally posted by Muddflap:
I apologize if I missed it on the first page, but what about removing the SIM card?

I think the thing this discussion is missing is why are you being targeted in the first place? There are countermeasures for SIM swaps. If you have a Signals Intelligence entity paying attention to you, then swapping or removing your SIM won’t help. We figured it out over the last 20 years of GWOT. If you are planning on doing something where you are concerned your phone may be a target indicator, leave it somewhere else. If not, I don’t understand the point of this thread.