No. At least not like what most of us might think. We look at ourselves and guess there may be something similar out there. I don't believe there is.

FlashGuy did start to bring about the fact that God is not human, and he lives in the heavens. So do his angels. So there is life 'elsewhere' in the universe. Just not like what we see on the Telly.

H&K-Guy

quote:

Originally posted by striker1:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by striker1:


Putting aside attenuation, radio signals would in fact have theoretically travelled 100 light years from earth. If Alpha Centaurans were monitoring our broadcasts, they're getting it on a 4.2 year delay.

But 100 light years is a tiny fraction of the universe. Like almost none of it. And the signals we put out are extremely weak.

Tiny fraction is an understatement. It would take another 100,000 years for any "signals" to reach outside our own Milky Way, and at that point they would need an additional 2.5 million light years to get to Andromeda, the next nearest galaxy.

Attenuation addresses your second point.

Actually, I think the Magellanic Clouds are closer than Andromeda.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Do the math. Try to get your mind around those numbers. even though it's impossible with the feeble goo between our ears.

Life elsewhere is an absolute certainty.

Let's see- what makes Earth so fertile for life?

Proper distance from our sun to allow for liquid water.

A metallic core, which provides the planet protection from solar radiation, due to the magnetic field the generates.

Tidal action, created by the gravitational influence of our moon.

Distinct seasons, which allow for cycles of dormancy and growth, and which are due to the planet's rotational axis being tilted in relation to our sun (probably also courtesy of the moon, long ago)

A stabilized rotation, also courtesy of the moon, and which, in the case of the Earth, slowed our rotation and gave the planet longer days than it had in its infancy.

The building blocks of life- the amino acids and so forth, have been shown to be abundant in comets and asteroids, so the seeding of a planetary body which has the above combination of factors listed above should be able to produce life.

What's so magical about that? Countless stars and countless planetary bodies orbiting those stars. We're talking about a mathematical certainty.

That's only significant if you believe that we are an accident. I don't.

flashguy

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
The building blocks of life- the amino acids and so forth, have been shown to be abundant in comets and asteroids, so the seeding of a planetary body which has the above combination of factors listed above should be able to produce life.

We're talking about a mathematical certainty.

I would add it's an energetic certainty as well. With a little understanding of o-chem and thermodynamics, any decent chemist knows that carbohydrate chemistry will come about with the right elements in place (which aren't just concentrated in our local neighborhood of the universe) in an attempt to lower the Gibbs free energy. From there, you have the molecular building blocks of life... no need to "seed planets" via comets/meteors.

For some time now I've recognized, along with others, that the Drake equation is flawed. It doesn't take into account temporal periods based on a number of events and should also be expanded to include AI.

It is a certainty that life exists elsewhere, but very unlikely that we and "alien" organic life from outside our solar system will ever meet. The distances are too great and the dangers are vast. Human kind may one day reach the edge of our solar system and even go beyond, but I give a much greater probability that it will be our (AI-driven) machines that spread to other star systems... if we survive long enough to develop their capabilities. Likewise if we ever encounter an "alien race", I firmly believe it will be the product(s) of their civilization (if you want to call it that) and not the creators themselves.

Maybe it's because I enjoy the story so, but Victory Unintentional by Isaac Asimov comes to mind when I ponder the Next Step.

quote:

Originally posted by Pipe Smoker:

Thank God that we have Trump and Mattis instead of HRC and Milk Toast.

Yay! Politics in a thread about space aliens.

quote:

Originally posted by flashguy:
That's only significant if you believe that we are an accident. I don't.

flashguy

Do you think a deity made us and no other life? If so, why do you think that and why would that be?

I believe there is alien life out there outside of what we know currently.

This stuff always fascinates me.....

Problem is that all that powerful EM we had been pumping out of the last hundred years is not getting stronger here in earth, but getting substantially weaker as we move up the EMS inot SHF in the Microwave/GHz bands. Using more and more directional comms of all kinds, beaming it off satellites in close beams, means that less and less is going into out space where it might be detected.

We are are almost on the limits of comms with our furthest-flung baby - Voyager - barely out of the solar system, and still only half way, after forty years or so, to the Ooort cloud that surrounds the solar system.

Either we are the first, or maybe the last, but the chances of making any kind of meaningful contact with a race of similar intellectual achievements is just never going to happen. Currently wombling along at its rather sedate pace, it would take over 70,000 years for Voyager to reach the orbit of Proxima Centauri, currently the nearest of the binary sysem. However, by the time it got there, it would have gone.

tac

quote:

Originally posted by TigerDore:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Are we alone ?

Absolutely not.

How many extra terrestrials have you met?

How many Gods have you met?

How many things to you believe that you have never personally observed or proved?

People once knew for certain the world was flat.

People once knew for certain that the Earth was the center of the universe.

People once knew for certain that the Sun was the center of the universe.

We are simply checking off the boxes to the realization we are simply another small backwater system of planets in the vast universe.

Will we find life out there? Likely some microbial life in our solar system but beyond that the distances with our current technology makes it difficult to explore further, but who knows what is possible as we continue to develop.

Or maybe it's all make believe and it's all about us humans and a couple hundred different books saying we're special and stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by flashguy:
That's only significant if you believe that we are an accident. I don't.

flashguy

Do you think a deity made us and no other life? If so, why do you think that and why would that be?

Actually, I don't know if God created other intelligent beings--He has yet to advise me of this. My comment was to address the idea that just because there were umpteen billion possible places that it was certain that other life existed. Since I don't know God's mind, I'm not willing to make that jump.

flashguy

If there is intelligent alien life, the closest we would come to discovering it is hearing the door lock noise as they pass by us.

It has already been said, but I agree with, that it is highly improbable there is no other intelligent life in the vastness of the universe, but we're too far apart to make contact. To visit even a relatively close star system - and they to us - within a human lifespan, we'd have to come up with a propulsion system that is five, 10, 20 or more times the speed of light. "Neptune and back in six minutes" (from the Star Trek: Enterprise series) would be a starting point.

I think it's also a mistake to limit the definition of "life" to creatures that could (or need to) live in a somewhat Earth-like environment. Perhaps a few thousand degrees C and constant radioactivity is considered rather comfy for some aliens.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Do the math. Try to get your mind around those numbers. even though it's impossible with the feeble goo between our ears.

Life elsewhere is an absolute certainty.

Let's see- what makes Earth so fertile for life?

Proper distance from our sun to allow for liquid water.

A metallic core, which provides the planet protection from solar radiation, due to the magnetic field the generates.

Tidal action, created by the gravitational influence of our moon.

Distinct seasons, which allow for cycles of dormancy and growth, and which are due to the planet's rotational axis being tilted in relation to our sun (probably also courtesy of the moon, long ago)

A stabilized rotation, also courtesy of the moon, and which, in the case of the Earth, slowed our rotation and gave the planet longer days than it had in its infancy.

The building blocks of life- the amino acids and so forth, have been shown to be abundant in comets and asteroids, so the seeding of a planetary body which has the above combination of factors listed above should be able to produce life.

What's so magical about that? Countless stars and countless planetary bodies orbiting those stars. We're talking about a mathematical certainty.

The thing that makes me wonder what the percentages are, is the moon. According to everything I've seen, our moon is an exception. Lots of planets have moons but none that are the size of, nor have the influence of, ours.

Our moon appears to be an exception which allows many of the other items listed above (stable rotation, seasons, tidal action to create the first goo, etc...). Heck, even the creation of the moon may have been what gave us our metallic core.

Can life be formed in a different way, sure. I tend to believe there could be life on Saturn's moon, Europa. But I think that there are just too many perfect conditions needed to do what has happened here for the number to be as big as they say.

As an example, we live in the proper zone for life to evolve in the solar system. Physicists and astronomers and the like say that we also live in the proper zone of the galaxy for life to evolve - too close in and there's too much radiation, too far out and there's not enough matter etc... So that excludes probably 80% of the stars in our galaxy. So when we do the calculation using the # of stars in our galaxy, we can only use ~20% of the stars as our starting number. So the starting number isn't 400B stars, it's ~80B. Then work down from there.

So I think the chance of life is there, but it's a lot smaller than the numbers we see in the links for example.

As Para points out, it is a mathematical certainty.

To which I agree... as for whether we should be signaling, I see it as both a waste and as unsound.

Spanish Conquistadors and South America are a prime example.

Anyhow, it doesn't keep me awake at night as I feel it will all come to naught.

What would be the impetus to visit earth?

An advanced civilization (if one exists) would have no purpose other than to say "hi". Not logical.

Earth has nothing anyone needs that can't be found closer.

There are 2 TRILLION galaxies out there.

If each galaxy only has life on one planet, there are 2 Trillion planets with life on it.

Then there are the 400 Billion stars in our run of the mill Milky Way galaxy...

There are huh? 2 Trillion? You counted 'em?

You suggest the probability of life in a galaxy is at 1; I think we're talking intelligent life, aren't we? If we mean life in general then I agree. However, for intelligent life, I think it's much, much less than that. That was my point.

My family moved into a new neighborhood when I was 9 years old. A neighbor was an engineer at P&W and he had built himself a 6" f/12 reflector telescope.
THe first time I looked through it two things happened, one --when he pointed at a not so bright star and told me to aim the scope, I'm like --what star? ( the next week I had my first eye glasses) and second
realizing that each 'star' was as like our Sun I felt that, How can we be the only intelligence in the entire galaxy? And there are galaxies too many to count.

I think we have been visited. Though open contact will wait till we humans prove that we can survive ourselves.

quote:

Originally posted by Shaql:
There are huh? 2 Trillion? You counted 'em?

You suggest the probability of life in a galaxy is at 1; I think we're talking intelligent life, aren't we? If we mean life in general then I agree. However, for intelligent life, I think it's much, much less than that. That was my point.

No, NASA counted them.

Hubble Reveals Observable Universe Contains 10 Times More Galaxies Than Previously Thought

Well, I can currently prove there is at least 1 planet with multiple forms intelligent life in the Milkway Galaxy - Earth. Hence the reason I used the (admittedly small) sample for my example of 1 planet in each Galaxies as an assumption.

But ok, that isn't good enough for you. So lets say the Milkway way having earth is REALLY RARE. Like 1 in a Million Rare.

In 2 Trillion Galaxies there would still be 2,000,000 galaxies with a single planet with intelligent life.

Not rare enough for you? Ok 1 in a Billion. 200,000 galaxies with a single planet with intelligent life.

Still not rare enough for you? How about 1 in a HUNDRED Billion. 2,000 is your answer.