My wife, Turning_gal, and I have gotten the bug to purchase EV, we are especially keen on the Tesla Model S (used) and as a second choice the Model 3 (new). Our budget would allow a cash purchase but only in the mid $40's~ which limits us to a 2016 or older Model S or a new Model 3.

We did visit a Tesla show room recently but were not able to take a test drive but we really liked what we saw. We have also joined one of the Tesla forums and done a ton of research on EV's in general. I was actually surprised at the number of company's offering charging stations, of course they are pricey.

I have a ton of questions about Tesla, are they good cars, what about the stability of Tesla as a company, what do current owners like/dislike about their cars, (any brand) and what are the pitfalls of purchasing a used EV beyond the normal issues with any used gas fed car. How much did your electric bill rise, is it worth it overall?

We realize that there is trade off for the environment, emissions from gas cars vs. emissions from the electric generating plants. We hope over time cleaner & more efficient technology will help with power generation.

Please share your thoughts, even if you don't own a EV, all input is welcome.

Two years ago, I bought my current home. It came with a EVSE (Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment, or plainly, a charger). Curious, I decided to investigate, and since I didn't want to incur a second car loan, found a used smart fortwo EV that I paid cash for.

Smart is Mercedes' brand for urban two-seater runabouts. Their electric was almost an afterthought.

Because my commute to work is short (6 miles), and I live within two miles of three different grocery stores, it has become my daily driver. I never would have thought it would replace my Mercedes E350C4. But the "black beauty" spends most of its time in my garage now!

The good:

It's cheap. I plug it in at night and it's good to go in the morning.
It's surprisingly quick off the line, and pretty agile. Given its size, it's also easy to park.
It's also surprisingly roomy. I've had guys 6'5"/250 in the passenger seat who didn't fee cramped. The passenger seat also folds down, giving me a lot of packing room. I've carried two guitars and an amp in it without squeezing.
It's safe. Relatively speaking. It's built around a Tridion steel safety shell, a cage that surrounds the passengers and makes up the bulk of the chassis. It gets four out of five stars in NTSB crash tests!

The bad:

The range. This is not a touring car. Under optimal circumstances, 90 miles is the expected range. It's sensitive to weather, so in the winter, 30-40 miles may be all one gets on a full charge.
It's not very aerodynamic, which means wind gusts and the buffeting by passing trucks is easily felt.
The top speed isn't great. While it's quick off the line, after about 30-40 mph, it's hit cruising mode. Top speed is said to be 76mph.
It draws the ire of the Billy Badasses driving their urban assault vehicles as compensation for their masculine shortcomings. I have a rear-window sticker that reads, "My other auto is a 9mm." It seems to keep them off my tail.

Of course, it's NOT a Tesla, even though the battery technology was developed by Mercedes in conjunction with Tesla. Batteries are much improved these days, and Tesla has their own "Supercharging" technology that lets owners get 80% charge in only 20 minutes. The higher-end Teslas also have additional performance options, such as "ludicrous mode," that you can witness stock Teslas blowing the doors off Dodge Hellcats (700hp) and the like. But you'll pay (and pay, and pay) for those features.

Finally, I'm not convinced that electric vehicles are the future. The claim (and government tax breaks -- which are about to expire) that they are more ecologically friendly doesn't seem to ring true to me. Sure, they don't emit air-spoiling exhaust, but the ecological damage done to mine and manufacture the batteries can be irreversible, and the electricity needed to fuel the batteries has to come from somewhere, right? My electric bill is higher because of my EV, but my gasoline costs are w-a-y reduced.

When the tax breaks finally go away, don't be surprised at the sticker shock when you remove that enticement.

Full disclosure: I do not own an EV. I did participate on a team in 1993 that did a full EV conversion on a diesel VW Rabbit. That was a while back, but I have some appreciation for what goes into an EV.

The Tesla automobile is an amazing machine. Say what you want about Musk, or how Tesla is run... it is an amazing car. Perhaps I would not trust autopilots, and I like to drive anyway, but the power on tap is great. They are comfortable, spacious, and the configurable allows you a great deal of customization. Tow? I have seen a Model X tow a car trailer with a 57 Chevy at a car show, so that’s around 5500 pounds. Torque to spare.

But, personally, I would not own one just yet. I have occasional needs for around 500 mile-ish day trips to SE Alabama where the super chargers are a bit scarce. And I’m too cheap to get one just for commuting just yet.

Less a fan of the Leaf. Yes, it commutes well, and can be a money saver at that, especially if you factor any tax advantages. I didn’t find it that comfortable, especially in winter. Hard to beat stoplight to stoplight in the city.

Money savings will depend a great deal on your driving. I believe Prefontaine has a good deal of experience in factoring that out.

quote:

Originally posted by fpuhan:

Finally, I'm not convinced that electric vehicles are the future. The claim (and government tax breaks -- which are about to expire) that they are more ecologically friendly doesn't seem to ring true to me. Sure, they don't emit air-spoiling exhaust, but the ecological damage done to mine and manufacture the batteries can be irreversible, and the electricity needed to fuel the batteries has to come from somewhere, right? My electric bill is higher because of my EV, but my gasoline costs are w-a-y reduced.

I agree that they are not a complete future, at least not soon. I think they are not going away, either. There are lots of electricity storage research projects in progress, no one says that our current rare earth technology is the end all.

Though they beat the hell out of the pile of deep cycles we used 25 years ago.

If I had the cash I would have one in an instant but only as a 2nd fun car.
I think they are an engineering marvel but nothing more than a novelty at the moment.
I highly suggest you watch a number of videos on the YouTube channel RichRebuilds. While he rebuilds totaled Tesla’s the channel gives an insight on the inner workings of Tesla from time to time. I learned a lot about the company from his videos and while a lot of it is not exactly positive I would still love to own one.

I would go for the S over the 3

I am about 2 hours from the nearest dealer/service center yet I see multiple Teslas everyday mainly the S but 3s are becoming a more frequent site.

Granted you are looking at new Model 3s this was an interesting video on the cost of used Model 3s and how there aren’t many good deals out there in reality.



Link to original video: https://youtu.be/byF5agx3Qz4

This is a rather comical video about ordering a very simple part.




Link to original video: https://youtu.be/vEtclSI8cgw

Are you aware that the batteries are TOXIC? How you can call something "Green" when it's batteries call for a Hazmat Rollout in the event of an accident breaching the battery case. I'll also point out that NOBODY is talkng about what to do with a battery pak that won't take a charge. At some point they will have to set up a system to handle disposal of unusable battery paks and I have a hunch that the owner of that battery pak will be handed a disposal fee well north of 10,000 dollars.

BTW, did a google search and the current disposal cost per ton of lithium ion batteries is between 4,000 to 5,000 dollars. Note, that is only the disposal cost AT THE DISPOSAL PLANT. Costs for removal from a vehicle and transporting the battery pak is in addition to the disposal cost. Thus my estimate of over 10K to dispose of a worn out battery.

Needless to say I wouldn't touch one of these electric cars with YOUR 10 foot pole. If they ever manage to power them with a battery that is actually environmentally safe I might reconsider my attitude. However today's electrics are best described as Mobile Hazardous Waste Sites and anyone who thinks they are "Green" is nuts.

Tesla is among the very least reliable brands of automobiles out there according to Consumer Reports brand survey of a half million car owners in 2018.

Teslas are literally everywhere here. Brother had a Model 3, now an S. Two of my neighbors have 3's, another has an S. I've last boss had a 3.

Haven't noticed anyone complaining about them, other than parts availability when one needed a new windshield

I say go for it, if it fits your driving need

I have a neighbor who has two an S and an X. They always seem to be in the shop (somewhat of an exaggeration). That being said, I have driven his S and ridden in his X. They are impressive - when working. I have another neighbor who as a 3 one who has some BMW SUV and one who has a Leaf. I’d say, from what I’ve seen, the Leaf is the way to go for commuting for an EV car. That being said, I’d buy a Prius or the new Honda first. I think the technology is more mature and realistic for driving where I live.

Don't dismiss the Bolt

I have a nephew who has owned a model 3 for about a year, and a son who bought one in December. Neither had any motivation of "saving the planet". They each did an analysis of the car compared to other cars, not just EVs.

In my son's case, he did an analysis of the five year cost of ownership, taking into account depreciation, cost of fuel, insurance, maintenance, etc. The Tesla was a very good decision for him. He is now living in Denver, and bought the AWD model which has two motors. His decision was made easier in that Colorado had a $5000 tax credit on top of the $7500 tax credit from the Feds.

The maintenance costs are very low, and the warranty on a new one is very good. Driving cross country is not a problem, although your stopping points are certainly more restrictive than a fossil fuel engine. But here's the skinny on charging:

It takes a while to top off the battery, as charging slows as you get closer to fully charged. They maintain the battery temperature to maximize battery life. My son's model 3 has the larger battery, and can have a range over 300 miles. But if he goes to a super charger with a substantially depleted battery, he can get an additional 200 miles in about 20 minutes. That makes cross country trips very doable, although you'll have stops of 20 minutes to 30 minutes instead of a typical 5-10 minutes.

As my nephew points out, however, the trade-off for the inconvenience on road trips is that in normal driving in town, he never has to stop for gas. This is a significant advantage, both in time, and in risk, as gas stations are one of the more dangerous places to be in the city.

My nephew has had no major issues. My son's car just stopped after a charge one day, and he had to be towed. Tesla gave him a loaner while he was without his car for several days. Some smaller electronic component failed-nothing to do with the big battery or motors-but enough to brick the Tesla.

Do your own analysis, but they are certainly viable vehicles today, not just in the future.

On the plus side, performance is outstanding, auto-pilot is truly useful, insurance is relatively inexpensive, fuel cost per mile is substantially lower than gas vehicles, and the big one- the model 3 is the safest car that has ever been tested, according the NHTSA.

It may be worth having a look at availability of service parts, too.

It's been several months since, but I read an article a while back written by a Tesla owner. He really liked the car, but had been involved in a crash with it. That's when things turned sour.

There were no service parts in the pipeline -- heck, Tesla couldn't keep up with "fresh build" demand, much less the demand for repair parts. So this fellow's car sat in the repair shop lot waiting. At the time of the article's writing, he had been waiting so long that the insurance company had quit paying for his rental. There he sat -- paying for a car he couldn't drive, footing the bill for renting an econobox to get to work and back, and getting no solid answers on when his car could be fixed.

I'd hope that by now the service parts supply is far better than then, but it may be worth asking the question.

Good luck! If you decide to buy it, I do hope you like it.

If I were considering an EV, I think I'd wait for a while before making a purchase decision. There are a ton of new EV's reaching the market in the next year from Audi, Jaguar, Rivian, VW, and others that may be a better purchase decision than Tesla, and will most assuredly offer you a much wider dealer support network.

also something to consider possibly (and even likely) coming to a state near you...


https://www.foxnews.com/auto/i...-vehicle-legislation

Electric car owners in Illinois could take a large hit to their bank accounts after lawmakers proposed an extreme hike in registration fees for electronic vehicles in the state.

The proposal would raise the annual registration fee to $1,000, more than 57 times the current amount of $17.50.

Illinois officials believe the legislation will raise $2.4 billion for future projects, the major one being roadway improvement, according to the Chicago Tribune.


The bill was introduced last week by Chicago state Sen. Martin Sandoval, a Democrat who says the registration fee hike is imperative to help fund necessary infrastructure improvements.

“Capital bills in Springfield are like the second coming of the cicadas — every 10 years — and that’s not the way to go in regards to funding our infrastructure,” Sandoval told NPR Illinois. “This is a transformational model. And hopefully, when we get done with passing this sustainable capital bill, we won’t have to have another press conference like this 10 years from now.”

The bill would also make things more expensive for residents who drive non-electric cars. The state's gas tax would go up 19 cents to 44 cents a gallon, fees for driver’s licenses would double and the registration fee for non-electric vehicles would go up nearly 50% from $98 to $148.

Electric car owners in Illinois could take a large hit to their bank accounts after lawmakers proposed an extreme hike in registration fees for electronic vehicles in the state.
Electric car owners in Illinois could take a large hit to their bank accounts after lawmakers proposed an extreme hike in registration fees for electronic vehicles in the state. (iStock)
“It’s outrageous,” Tesla owner Nicoletta Skarlatos, 56, told the Chicago Tribune. “I thought Illinois was progressive and would want to encourage EV (electric vehicle) ownership.”

The reason for the extreme hikes are that electric vehicles don't provide the state any gas tax revenue. Electric vehicle companies Tesla and Rivian say they're against the legislation.

“Imposing fees on EVs that are over 400 percent more than their gasoline-powered counterparts is not only unfair, it discourages promising new technology that will reduce our dependence on petroleum, reduce emissions, and promote the Illinois economy,” Rivian spokesman Michael McHale told the Chicago Tribune.

Sandoval says people who drive hybrids and plug-in electric hybrids won't have to pay the higher registration fee.

This isn't the first time Illinois used a new program to raise additional funds from local residents.



From 2010-2015, 1.2 million motorists in Chicago received 1.5 million tickets as part of the city's red-light and speed camera programs. Residents filed a class action lawsuit, alleging the programs violated the rights of over a million people after the city took more than $285 million, according to the Chicago Sun-Times. The city agreed to settle, with the average resident getting about $36.62. Those who had already paid their tickets before the lawsuit were out of luck.

Officials hope the new gas and electric hikes raise eight times the amount of the red-light and speed camera programs.

Illinois was seventh in electronic vehicle sales last year and there are about 15,000 registered in the state. Over 200,000 electric vehicles were sold last year, about two percent of total U.S auto sales, according to Jenny Acevedo, an analyst with auto research firm Edmund.

We've owned a BMW i3 for 4 years now. We bought it as a convenient and small city car that would fit the four of us and get us around town. There was no "green" aspect to our decision making. My other car has 12 cylinders and doesn't exactly sip gas.

The pluses were that we save on fuel costs and there was free parking in the city for EVs. It has good acceleration and fits us well in a small car.
The downsides are the ride is terrible- almost like a golf cart. The range causes huge anxiety, and if you want to go anywhere far, it is generally not possible without the logistics of finding a charging point and planning a long enough stop to recharge just to get home. Quick trips around town are fine, but it is not a good car for "taking a trip" anywhere. I also do not care for the way hybrids and EV's essentially lurch when you let off the accelerator pedal for regenerative braking. It really makes the ride uncomfortable.

I honestly don't go a week without saying how much I hate the car, and can't wait to sell it. It has very much soured my opinion of electric cars, and will not buy another electric anytime soon. The free parking benefit has gone away, and our time in the city will hopefully come to an end in the next 12 months.

I really don't know all that much about EV. Maybe they already offer this but, isn't it possible now or in the future to offer an EV that has solar panels that are sturdy and flexible enough to be molded and incorporated into the roof, trunk, and hoods to be able to effectively charge, or recharge batteries to keep them running?

Maybe they already do, as mentioned, I don't know squat about EV's. You'd think when a vehicle is driven to work and sits out in a parking lot out in the sun for periods it could charge the battery, or even driving longer distances on trips during daylight hours. I see that here in Florida, even when I still worked for FPL they were always investing money in solar technologies and today I see ads on TV showing several new solar generation plants under construction to provide future clean power. I know we have more sunshine than most all year so it's more feasible however, as solar panels become more advanced offering them incorporated into EV's could help the batteries stay charged without plugging in.

quote:

We realize that there is trade off for the environment, emissions from gas cars vs. emissions from the electric generating plants. We hope over time cleaner & more efficient technology will help with power generation.

You are way ahead of the curve, being clear about this from the get-go. I respect folks who want the car, as a car, and not because of muddled uber-environmentalist thinking.

My only issues about the car, as a car, pivot around the company and infrastructure. It's a reasonably new company and cars need decent infrastructure. Are there dealers/good service options around you? What are your expectations of eventual trade-in value or are you keep-it-forever folks? If you're a do-it-yourselfer, do the local car stores have parts?