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No, I'm not surprised... that's why the brand means very little in this whole picture. | |||
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| Get my pies outta the oven!  |
With apologies to the guy from Armageddon: "Trane components...Goodman components...ALL MADE IN TAIWAN!" | |||
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WELL, The OP is asking for brand recommendations in his title. Not a college dissertation on techs and install. | |||
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Ammoholic |
Mine, his, and at least one other person's was that brand isn't as important as the installer. You are the lone dissenting opinion. You've obviously had problems with rheem a number of times and have other anecdotal information about others having the same problem. You've added to the conversation that you wouldn't purchase their products again. Why don't you just leave it at that. Jesse Sic Semper Tyrannis | |||
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| Member |
Because there is a quality difference in the brands and it is equally important as the install and installation. Cheap brands don't have low pressure and high pressure safety switches to protect the unit in case it's low on freon or the filter is blocked, they also usually don't have scroll compressors, etc. etc. And, the op isn't asking for info on installers or install. It's like if you go to the seafood market and ask them what fish is fresh, and they start telling you about shrimp and scallops. It's not what the OP is asking for and it's not the information you're looking for. I own 4 central a/c units between 3 properties. I manage 2 other properties that have 7 central a/c units and have friends that own/manage a bunch of properties too. And, if you want to include Marine air conditioners I manage and maintain another 30 of them. Plus this is in South Florida where the central AC runs 330 days per year. So I have seen a difference in brands and how long they have lasted, common issues they have. It's pretty obvious when you have a 4 plex with 2 central a/c units and each side is a mirror image of itself, same exact install, same ductwork, same size, same setup and the Trane goes 22 years and the Rheem goes 11 years. You replace one with a Rheem because that is what the installer recommended and in 6 years you've replaced the fan motor in the condensing unit and 2 blower motors and something else. And the other side you put an American Standard 2 years later and have never had to touch it. To say that a $1100 Goodman is the same exact quality as a $2500 American Standard is insane and defies logic. | |||
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The BEST BRAND is the one which is SIZED, INSTALLED and SET-UP to operate with-in the manufacture's specifications. ^^^ This relies solely on the Tech doing the final on-site manufacturing. Their name is on the final product. All goes straight back to finding the BEST TECH and you'll have your brand. BTW, when you *try* to impress someone with your self proclaimed "I own, I manage, I've seen, etc." vs. FACTS, it makes you look pathetic (O used the same I/Me BS). Get over it already. | |||
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It's to show that I see a myriad of central a/c brands and their long term operation. My experiences are facts. Tech's only see a/c's generally when they're broken. How many techs care for the same exact unit from the day it's installed to the day it's replaced? End users see the a/c's in operation their entire life. It's a different perspective. Quite honestly, I really do not care what you think of me or the beef you seem to have with me. I do not enter threads that I do not have some knowledge to contribute in. ANY a/c thread you come into, you do not answer the OPs question you instead switch the conversation to finding the best tech......THAT'S NOT WHAT THE OP IS LOOKING FOR. Perhaps you should next instruct the OP on how to find the best tech! Anyways, from my experiences it seems Tranes and American Standards seem to fare the best here in South Florida and Rheem the worst. I also had a bad experience with Goodman, at 2 years the coils in the condensing unit developed a hole and had to be braised and at 7 years the coils in the air handler started leaking, so I had the entire unit replaced with a Maytag because that's the only air handler that would physically fit in the closet it's mounted without going to a smaller water heater with the new higher seer mandated units. Now, for whatever reason there is not a strong presence of Lennox or Carrier down here, you see a few but it's a rarity. All of the price is no object houses my customers own, have Tranes......rows of them...... | |||
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You see a few systems over a few years... BIG DEAL. lmao  Many techs do see the same equipment from day one until it gets replaced at the end of its life. The same techs also see shortened equipment life from hacked in installations and sizing issues. The users different prospective doesn't mean shit. As most do not understand the workings of such equipment to know bullshit from the facts. My beef with you is the constant BULLSHIT you post, which you think 'somehow' translates into facts. I told the OP how to get the BEST HVAC system. For someone that *thinks* they know so much whom can't understand that, then you really do have a false sense of reality. <<--- another similarity with O. Go find all those A/C threads in which I failed to answer the OP's question. Should be easy for you since I *seem* to do it all the time.
No problem, ask friends, family, neighbors, co-workers, church members and others who they use. See if their happy with the comfort and service in which they receive. You know, gets REFERRALS. Call HVAC distributors and ask them for a couple top quality HVAC companies for your area. They know who knows their trade and who doesn't. They also know who has a lot of warranty claims (not a good sign).
O boy, that's a huge amount of experience with HVAC systems. Do you know what can cause holes in coils? Hint: it's related to the installation. Listen up dipshit. HVAC equipment isn't plug-n-play. If you buy a large TV, it doesn't care if its installed in a small room. All it relies on, is getting clean power to operate. The longevity isn't compromised by the small room. Now if you get a large HVAC system and install it on an inadequate ducting system, IT WILL FAIL. If the system isn't set-up correctly; fuel pressure, adequate combustion air, proper venting, return ducting, supply ducting, fan speed, temp rise, proper evacuations, proper brazing technics, proper line sizing, proper charging, proper size, adequate air filter sizing, adequate power feed, matching equipment to name a few, IT WILL FAIL. You know, the engineering which the installer does for each system. You know the final steps in the manufacturing process of each HVAC system. The most expensive appliance in your home is manufactured ON SITE by an HVAC TECH. They purchase components to assemble ON SITE. So, in FACT, the system should have their name on the front. No different than Trane, AM STD, Rheem, Carrier, Bryant, ICP, Lennox, Armstrong, etc. They buy components and assemble them into larger components, but you don't see Honeywell, White Rodgers, Robertshaw, etc. on the front of the equipment. If you get a hack that cuts corners, picks the wrong components, etc.... you'll have a POS no matter what components they chose to install. But I'm sure Bubba down the street who installs Trane for a case of beer will do a great job! Next you'll be telling me Trane sends out factory reps to install their equipment. | |||
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Well considering in my city with a population of 3.5 million people and there are only 2 Trane authorized dealers. Yes, they only send out factory trained techs to install their equipment. Whereas about 5,000 people/companies can go buy a Goodman or Rheem and install it. Bubba down the street can't buy a Trane. If you're not a Trane dealer, you're not buying an uninstalled Trane, but being an expert, you should already know that. I know all about a/c and how it works and how to do a manual J and all the calculations, ductwork sizing, etc. etc. It's all cut and dry and pretty easy for anyone with half a brain, a tape measure, and a calculator to figure out. 1 ton of a/c flows 400 cfm of air. Heck the damn installation manual tells you what line size, ductwork requirements, and everything else the unit needs. I also know everything there is to know with marine a/c, I deal with it day in and day out: package units, direct expansion units, chilled water systems, freezer plate systems, refrigerators, freezers, walk in/reach in coolers. If I stuck you on an 80' Hatteras motoryacht with 2 chillers and 14 fan coils, it would take you all day just to find where all 14 fan coil units are, let alone diagnose why 1 isn't cooling, or they all aren't cooling. I could jump on a 80' yacht I've never been on and locate all 14 units in 20 minutes or less. Marine a/c is so much further technologically advanced compared to household a/c, it makes household a/c look like a complete joke. About the same as comparing a Ferrari engine to a briggs and straton lawn mower engine. Marine a/c has used high pressure and low pressure cut out switches that will switch the unit off automatically and display a code since the 80's for example, most household units still don't have this technology and will just keep running and hammer the compressor for either fault and just keep running and running. I also know automotive a/c as well, that's where I started. I've worked with R12, R22, R143, R410, R407, and even propane regularly. The hole in the condensor on the goodman wasn't anywhere near where the line set was braised on and the freon was charged by temperature of the line set and the appropriate pressures. It was faulty condensing coils, it lasted 2 years before it developed a hole. | |||
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Too clever by half |
Not York. "We have a system that increasingly taxes work, and increasingly subsidizes non-work" - Milton Friedman | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money  |
This thread has become amusing. "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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I said "factory reps" not 'factory trained techs', nice try. But, if you believe every Trane installer is factory trained or that somehow that makes them the cream of the crop, you're delusional. <<--- Another O similarity. Wow, that makes three now... Now back to the leaking coil. Yeah, couldn't have been an installation issue then, cause you say so... lol BTW, I'm not talking about leaking from bad brazed connections or from the service ports. See my quote: "Do you know what can cause holes in coils? Hint: it's related to the installation." It says coils, not connections or ports. Last I checked, the OP isn't asking about MARINE equipment either. Again, this is stationary housing products. Remember that from the PEX thread? Keep up! Now, make sure you post your resume this time. It might impress *someone*. | |||
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I watched them install it. The a/c guy who installed it has a mechanical engineering degree from FSU and has been installing a/c's a long time. He's very good. The area that needed to be braised was a bad weld that let loose from the Goodman factory. It had nothing to do with installation. I watched him charge the unit, with the temperature probe on the line set to exactly what the Goodman chart read. The freon pressures were correct, the line set size correct, new dryer installed, the system was vaccuumed for an hour and pulled over 30lbs of vaccuum, everything regarding the install was 100% correct. The air handler also started leaking from the middle of the coils. It's a condo, the installation was correct. It's in a centrally closet with a 24"x24" return for a 2 ton unit, and the ductwork was plenty big enough. Every once in a while every manufacturer makes a unit that has issues, even Trane for example. Trane has a much tighter leash on who they let become dealers and the techs that work for them have to go to Trane classes and be certified and have continuing education. I'm sure Lennox and Carrier and the other top brands are the same, they don't sell units to anyone besides their authorized dealers. ANYONE with an a/c license can buy a Goodman or Rheem, heck you can buy them on ebay and places like that without a license and go play a/c guy and install it. Pex tubing, air conditioning,generators etc. Yes, putting it in a harsher environment tests it's limits, it shows what parts tend to fail earlier than others, it's what most manufacturers do when they test their products, put them in the harshest conditions they will face and see what breaks. The principles behind air conditioning are the same between house, yachts, commercial buildings, the package and symantics are slightly to more than slightly different. A lot of yachts have direct expansion just like a house, you have a fan coil/evaporator and a condensing unit, copper line set, ductwork.....just a smaller package and the condensing unit is water cooled instead of air cooled. Aside from the condensing unit being water cooled (which adds a lot of parts: triggers, circuit board, raw water a/c pump, strainer, plumbing,etc.) the way they work is the same as a house unit. They all compress freon and the expansion of the freon is what provides the cooling. Technology in the marine a/c has been 20 years ahead of household a/c. We've had high pressure and low pressure cut outs with a circuit board that shuts the unit off since the 1980s, computer controlled variable speed blowers since the 80's, almost all units have been reverse cycle units since the 60's (heat pump),multi stage chillers, and in the last 10 years soft start and variable speed compressors on and on. Quite honestly, the marine technology trickles down to you guys. For the life of me, I have no idea why they haven't put hi pressure and low pressure cut out switches on all household a/c units in the past 20 years that flash a high pressure code or a low pressure code on the display and shut the condensing unit off to save it. But to say there is no quality difference between a budget brand such as Goodman or Rheem or etc. and Trane or Lennex or Carrier and that they will last the exact same lifespan if both are installed by an excellent installer and installation is total BS, there is a quality difference between the top brands and the budget brands. For the money, I'd go with an American Standard. Price no object a Trane. | |||
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| Partial dichotomy |
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| Ammoholic |
Is it Duck Season or Wabbit Season?  Jesse Sic Semper Tyrannis | |||
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Update- Three contractors have come out. Based on what I've seen and heard and that current system is 22 yrs old I'm replacing everything both AC and furnace on the two systems. 3 ton up and 2.5 dwn(2 present). First was one MIL used quoted Goodman as he says he's Dealer. Was highest(16,300) and spent least amount of job studying our set up and house. Included two new supply registers downstairs and accompanying duct work. Second was more local dealer with positive reviews for Nextdoor website neighbors. Quoted($12,350) American Standard 96% two stage heat dwn. 80% American Standard up. One new supply up. One new supply down, Two enlarged supplies and ducts in den down. Third contractor just left. Spent 2 hours studying house and will come back tomorrow to go over quote (sale) his system. He said we didn't have enough return which you can never have enough of. I'm interested in his quote as he spent most time measuring our heat loss/gain specifics. | |||
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That is true on the return and filter. A larger or even oversized return allows you to run better filters without restricting airflow and the filters will last longer as you have more square inches of media filtering the same volume of air. What brand did the third guy recommend? | |||
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He didn't it say just that he sold Carrier, American Standard and one other.. I was at work and he told wife this before I got there. He was quite type and is a employee/estimator that works for this larger contractor .. they have good online reviews and are customers of my business in a small way..have been in business for a long time.. I'll learn tomorrow.. thinking about asking him to quote american standard to keep it simpler. | |||
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You really shouldn't have edited this last post... adding 'details', cause its more proof YOU DON'T HAVE THE FIRST DAMN CLUE! I'll answer the question I've asked you twice now: No, you don't have the first clue, as to what can create holes in coils. That's really all you had to say, a simple NO.
Anybody with proper training knows you don't go by 30 inches (not lbs. BTW) of vacuum for a proper evacuation. Have you ever heard of a MICRON gauge? That's what's needed, since most manufactures recommend the system to be pulled down to a minimum of 600 microns. But hey, you *watched* him install it...
You really have no clue what it evolves to purchase HVAC equipment, but go ahead and keep guessing and making shit up. Seems to be what you do best.
Because 90% of the time they're not needed and it cuts the cost of their equipment/overhead.
They're all junk, until the manufacturing is completed ON SITE by a competent tech. | |||
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The hole in the coil was created by a BAD FACTORY weld where one of the smaller tubes is welded to the main tube. The Weld failed. What part of reading comprehension did you miss in school??? You can suck an a.c. system at 30 inches of vaccuum ALL DAY LONG and it won't hurt anything. The system is designed to run at least 60 PSI of pressure on the low side and 220 psi on the high side if it's an R22 system and much higher pressures with 410. 30 inches of vaccuum is going to hurt anything, you must be kidding. What exactly are you manufacturing on site??? Duct work???? You're connecting a bunch of store bought components, manufacturing is when you MAKE something from raw materials, not connect ductwork together and run a copper line set and mount stuff. And if it's a package unit, then what, you're hooking up to electric and ductwork and mounting it to a slab. http://www.oceanbreezeac.com/ This IS a manufacturer, you my friend are simply an installer! My buddy MANUFACTURES a/c systems. He builds the entire chiller systems from scratch and then installs them into large megayachts and completes the install (ductwork etc.). I have exactly a clue what it takes to purchase a/c equipment. NON dealers can purchase American Standard, but cannot get TRANE. JUNK btw has no monitary value, a brand new a/c condensor and evaporator in the box, has plenty of monetary value. Anyways, you're unbelievable and keep going around in circles. | |||
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